Five interviews in eight months... You lucky ba...d. I have had one in the same time frame (and no job offer).

to 5 Intervies

I think you should change your strategy and look at other channels in the job market, only 20% of the jobs are through recruiters.

These tips could help and do.

1. Keep in contact with old colleagues and talk about life and jobs in IT.

2. Adjust your resume to suite the job.

3. Get certified in an skill like Microsoft.

4. Talk about that you’re a more in to adjusting to new projects than just how good you are at programming.

Remember, software engineering isn’t about how good you are but how good you are at adapting to the new task and being productive.

<b>Other speals that have nothing to do with this issue:</b>

In my opinion, the myth of the nerd programmer is dead, any monkey can code, you just pick up an IT programming book and away you go.

In the 80’s – 90’s if you could code they threw money at you, now that they are a dime a dozen you come cheap.

I remember if you hacked and wrote viruses you were given a job and lots of money for you achievement, now they throw you in Jail. Virus writers aren’t smart people there just plain stupid nerds.

<b>Other speals that have nothing to do with this issue:</b>

In my opinion, the myth of the nerd programmer is dead, any monkey can code, you just pick up an IT programming book and away you go.

Yeah, right Andrew; from the above HTML formatting attempt to create a bold font, attention to detail and syntax is obviously not your forte :(

Mungo Gerry,

At least im not on the Dole,

Dole man

Macca

I agree, Mungo is probably one of those disgruntled IT drop outs who couldnt hack in the real world.

Unemployed for 8 months - you must have some good skills and plenty of experience. My current experience is that good IT people can expect long periods of unemployment, myself and a number of colleagues were all 12 months plus, out of work.

The issue of monkeys is almost true, the saying is "You pay peanuts, you get monkeys", thats why there are so many monkeys out there in IT land.

As for collecting dole - just do it - you paid tax didn't you. The best part of it is that it gets Little Johnny Howard agitated, I bet he loses sleep thinking that there are people collecting the dole and not enslaved to one of his rich mates : on the dole , its almost as good a lark as a politician. Better still is 'Work for the Dole', Paul Keating made those bludgers plant trees, I got to sit on the beach, and Johnny H paid me to it, beat that! Do you know how many sunny days we had in the last 15 months? Lots! I got a good tan!

So anyway I finally scored a job, my skills weren't even an exact match, maybe they were despaerate, maybe they just wanted some one who can carry a project, someone who can walk through shit and come out clean. Someone who has seen skills come and go, and does and learns whats necessary.

So, dont accept peanuts because they'll think your a monkey don't worry about your skills because the ability to reach targets is more important, and if youre not working get on the dole. Collecting the dole might be a pain in the arse, but its an eye-opener into how inefficient the Government is, if Centrelink is a judgement of Little Johnnies management capabilities, I would'nt let him manage the paper-clip bin. On the other hand he would just sell it to the Americans.

Andrew

For someone who knocks others hard-earned skills every chance you get, you don't seem to have too many of your own.

Your grammar has improved slightly from your last post, and I know most people type quickly on forums such as this, but still...

"to 5 Intervies"

"Get certified in an skill like Microsoft."

"to suite the job"

"Talk about that you’re a more in to"

"throw you in Jail" (err, don't you mean gaol?)

"Virus writers aren’t smart people there just plain stupid nerds" (true, but most of them know the difference between there and they're)

Come on buddy, my 12 year old cousin can do better than that. If you're going to knock other people's professional skills, at least try to look like you were educated past year 6.

amcginley is not a native English speaker. You can tell from his use of the strange phrase: "IT programming" and his other mistakes.

Also, from his little platitude about software engineering, I suspect he might be one of the guys going through a Mickey Mouse course at an Australian university.

I've got a bit of news for you, amcginley. Software engineering is precisely about being good. Your lecturers might tell you that adaptability is an adequate substitute, but I'm afraid it isn't. They're the same thing.

From the article posted by Tony:

In the same year, the teaching quality fellow in the economics and business faculty, Michael Paton, wrote that persistent problems included "the use of our courses by international students, particularly, the Chinese, as an Australian visa application process rather than an educational process".

I interviewed 8 candidates recently for a development position and 3 of them had in fact come into the country as post grad students doing various post grad IT courses that they were overqualified for and did not need. Now I know why.

On another matter; why must every topic degenerate into a name calling competition? And why do people always think that what they do and only what they do is hard and is the only thing worthy of being called skilled IT work and end up slagging everyone else?

Newsflash Andrew: There are plenty of skilled IT people that are out of work for a variety of reasons: ageism, lack of IT work outside of the major capitals, etc. Incompetence is not the only one reason for everything. I hope you are never put in such a situation.

Also, If we're going to nit pick; last time I checked Microsoft was a "vendor" and not a "skill".

Now go stand with CD in the corner and face the fall.

Frankie,

1. Microsoft is a skill

2. Jail is still a valid english word.

3. There and they're are the same thing

WHO is the 12 year old kleb now.

If you are claiming dole, you must have a jobsearch partner, no?

So get them to give you some interview practice. That's why they are there.

Falling into a rut and getting depressed is an endless spiral if you don't make that effort to dig yourself out of it.

People,

Stop slamming Andrew, we should be concentrating on the issue of helping our poor IT colleagues RIGHT!

So what if he can’t spell or write, it’s the issue at hand that’s important and I know this guy, he earns 96 k for doing spelling mistakes.

Maybe you toads are relying on MS Word too much.

Paul

Ranier-why drag me into this?

And if you believe everyone who disagrees with you will have to stand in the corner-think again, mate!

I stand by all the opinions I have expressed on this forum, and no one here has been able to come up with one logical response to the contrary.

For example, no one has been able to prove that programming is not a low end function, and that offshoring and 457 visa holders are responsible for the fact that a few locals are unemployed.

On the other hand, I have established beyond all reasonable doubt that offshoring accounts for a tiny 3% of the IT services business, that the manjority of 457 visa holders come from the UK & Ireland, not India.

Incidentally, did you know the average salary for a 457 visa holder is currently $ 70,000 p.a.? Do take a look at the related post on the DIMIA homepage at www.immi.gov.au

Come up with some sense, for a change!

Macca,

There == There.

They're == They are.

They're buying the house.

They are buying the house.

The house they are buying is over there. It is not here.

When they have bought the house it will be their house. The will own it. It will belong to them.

1. "Microsoft" is one of the many registered trademarks of the Microsoft Corporation . "Microsoft" is not a skill, it is a trademark. "Proficiency with Microsoft(R) software" is a skill.

2. The words "gaol" and "jail" have an interesting history. In short, "jail" is the preferred spelling as it is more sensible. Almost all Australian newspapers use it. The Australian Government Publishing Service: Style Manual for Authors, Editors, and Printers refers to The Macquarie Dictionary as the source for spellings of words. In that dictionary it states that the spelling of the word has shifted from "gaol" to "jail".

3. "There" and "they're" are not the same thing. "There" is used in a number of ways, but mostly as a location. For example, "go over there". "They're" is a contraction of "they are". A contraction is formed by removing or combining some of the sounds of a phrase to make it shorter. Another example of a contraction is "didn't", which expands to "did not".

4. No, I did not pay attention in English class. I day dreamt and scribbled drawings all over my notebooks. I am simply different from most computer programmers in that I am aware of the limited size of my own skull, and so constantly refer to books and electronic resources. I am more concerned with getting things right rather than being right.

5. We seem to have lost sight of the goal of communication. If a speaker is communicating effectively (that is, the audience understands the speaker) then there are few reasons for the audience to nitpick. Having said that, communicating the steps in a computation (that is, programming) requires an extreme attention to detail. Being meticulous is a trait found in all good programmers. Strangely, this does not always carry into other aspects of a programmer's life, so we can be forgiven for being sloppy sometimes.

P.S. I would like to thank Tony Healy and Ranier Wolfcastle for their consistently intelligent and well presented posts.

CD, it was you who were going to prove to us that software engineering was a low-end activity. I don't recall seeing your proof. Have I missed it? Could you point me to your explanation?

Second, in repeating your assertions you pretend there have been no rebuttals, and fail completely to address them. Do you not have any arguments, CD?

I pointed out to you that the quoted impact of offshoring on local jobs is misleading in using the total IT services figure as a reference, when in fact offshoring is concentrated in high end activities, especially software engineering. On those calculations, the impact of offshoring, including 457 abuse, would be much higher than 3 percent.

The recent Kinnaird study points out that nearly half the graduate positions are filled by overseas people. Other studies report unemployment rates up to 30 percent among IT graduates. This is the report the ACS, yet again, wants to keep hidden.

Your reference to the composition of 457's misses the point. I and every other person interested in this issue could not give a stuff where excess foreign workers come from. You seem to want to see racism in this issue, to the extent of injecting it, actually. That said, researchers such as Hira have documented the reliance of Indian firms on visa abuse.

DIMIA's average salary for a 457 is not relevant as it includes all occupations including highly paid doctors, managers and academics. The figure we need is the salary for software engineers. Again, Kinnaird's work shows large numbers of 457's on minimum salaries, consistent with patterns in America, documented by Matloff and others.

CD,

I was merely joking when I said go stand in the corner. I have no problem with you believing in what you're saying. This is a free country afterall.

What I have an issue with is: If we were to offshore all development work equating it to low end factory work.... WHERE WILL THE NEXT GENERATION OF ANALYSTS, ARCHITECTS AND DESIGNERS COME FROM? i.e. where will the people that add value / create the IP come from? Last time I checked, they did not grow on trees.

I have asked this 3 or 4 times now, and you do not seem to have an answer.

If you answer the question, you don't have to stand in the corner and face the wall.

And to get back on topic. Those advocating that close enough is good enough are in my humble opinion wrong. Bad spelling and/or grammar (unless you are not from these lands) show a lack of attention to detail. And last time I checked, close enough was not good enough in IT.

Folks,

We, collectively, need to get a grip here; the old adage "United we stand and divided we fall" is even more relevant today than at any other time in recent history given the Globalisation Juggernaut with its focus on cheap human capital resources, appears unstoppable in the short term.

Andrew, aka Macca, Paul, amcginley (Andrew McGinley) and probably Aldo appears to be an agent or spoiler who is seeking to create divisions for reasons that are beyond my comprehension at this time. Inflammed responses will simply affirm his convictions and prejudices; it will not neccessarily change his perspective.

Mea culpa! I accept the blame for getting these flames ignited when I hastily responded to Andrew's posting in what I admit was a fairly blunt way of pointing out what shows up consistantly in Psychometric Testing; people who are good at Programming typically tend to exhibit (Perfectionist) Profiles which enable them to deal with low-level (programming) detail in a way that people not having these attributes do not.

For those persistant recalcitrants; low-level in this context should not to be confused with low-end.

Having said that, in a converse sense Programmers typically make lousy Managers because to be a successful Manager you need to be extremely time conscious and focused on the bigger picture, which in my experience, Programmers generally are not.

No matter where in the food chain we find ourselves in the present ultimately we'll all be the poorer for not addressing the important issues that confront this Industry now and into the future, and that includes you Andrew, irrespective of what role you are currently playing.

Good times may be rolling now for some and they are seeking to protect their interests but a quick look over the shoulder should be enough for most people to realise that on a Global scale, resources are being concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer players that, in some cases, have enough power to challenge the sovereignty of many Governments around the World.

It may only be a matter of time before you too find yourself swallowed up and spat out by this Juggernaut.

The biggest thing I hear from my clients is "I want someone with an engaging personality". Someone who enjoys what they do. Someone who they as an employer feels their staff will help promote their company on site.

Energy is essential in an interview. I know you are going through hard times, and don't be "canned". But show them how important they are to you. Don't be desperate. Be honest.

Folks

Ok, I cant spell and can’t write English, maybe I write so fast that my fingers fly off the keyboard. Basically I was trying help Colin on the subject.

All I can say is blooop to you all!

To Colin, Always keep in contact with past IT colleagues and shout them a beer now and then, jobs offers ushally come up through conversation, that’s how I get some of my contracts. Also talk about some technology stuff as well.

AM

It has been good reading... and bad but now I must go and continue the job search

If you can't get a job in 8 months you're either :

A - Not skilled enough for the jobs you're applying for.

B - In the wrong industry.

At one stage this year I was getting up to five calls about contracts a DAY. You can't tell me there is no work out there.

So what if those born and/or educated in an English speaking country have a better command of English than those who speak English as their 2nd or even 3rd language.

So what if we all think we cut and engineer the best code and believe others shouldn't be in the industry.

So what if we benefit from the dole.

So what if some of us have better grammer than others.

None of the mentioned cover the forum topic.

So do any of you have any ideas/experience/tips in landing that job?

Fair Point.

I myself have contributed to the crap. I don't have an issue with the bad english as such...except when someone with bad english tries to correct (incorrectly).

Anyway...

Colin, What have you been doing in the last 8 months while not working? Going to interviews is good but so is study, training, practice, etc.

If you have been getting interviews over the last 8 months the CV is probably OK.

Try giving FULL answers during the interview next time. You might be a match, but the onus of proof rests with you. Don't be who you are not but do be positive. Do give a good vibe. If out of work for 8 months it ias a fair bet you will qualify for unemployment benefits.

In Australia the jobnetwork members can simulate interviews and give you practice (If you are in receipt of benefits). Maybe they can round up other tech people so at least you can take turns as interviewers and be asked relevant technical questions as well as receive feedback on non-technical matters by the jobnetwork member.

myScreenName, you are correct. We all seem to get on our high horse too quickly.

Colin, networking is your best way of landing the next job or contract. If you have been to a lot of 1st interviews and have not cracked it for a 2nd, find out why. Ring back and ask questions.

If you are being asked back for 2nds and are not progressing further you might want to really know what your referees are saying to these employers. You will be surprised at the number of people who give us referees who turn around and say bad things about them.

And if your referees are saying bad things, start looking at ways of treating the problem(s).

Now on a completely different topic: I can't help but notice our old mate CD has disappeared once again.

That's 4 times now that he's evaded my question. What's the matter CD, cat ate your tongue?

It really is hard to grab a face-to-face to begin with. I've had a few phone 'interviews', but most of them turn me down because of a lack of a certain skill. Only one turned me down for no given reason-AFTER they told me they wanted an interview--I'm still wondering where I messed up on that one.

The fact that you've gotten five interviews means you have the skills. The question is--are you hungry for the job, or are you applying to these just as filler (i.e. temp/part-time) before you nail your dream job? There are times you can't fake enthusiasm for a job--not saying you should go on bended knee for it, but you have to really want the job. Disinterest of even the slightest will put your resume and application on the bottom end of the pile.

Here's some tips I hope will help:[LIST]

[*]NEVER take an interview if you're tired after work. This is important, because fatigue only makes you look less interested in the job.

[*]Clothes--always dress up in fully-pressed, neat, and businesslike clothing for the job.

[*]Like Resumes and Cover Letters, you have to tailor your interview to the company and people reading it. The problem here is that you'll only be able to tailor 'yourself' (i.e. self-image, the 'you' that you're selling) once you've met the interviewer. Will they want a personable approach or a cool professional?

[*]Never get more than two or three interviews in a day--Only one if you're working at another job. Not unless you can 'switch gears' quickly from one interviewer to another.

[/LIST]

Hope those can help.

macca wrote:

> 1. Microsoft is a skill

No it isn't. It's a private corporation.

Microsoft .NET, Microsoft #C, etc, are skills. If you don't even know the difference a company name and the technologies of that company you don't deserve to hold a job in IT.

> 3. There and they're are the same thing

They are totally different. "There" is a word of it's own whereas "they're" is a contraction of two words and has a totally different meaning. If you don't know what the apostrophe signifies you need to go back to year 9 english.

I seriously feel sorry for any one who hires you for development work. Lack of intelligence in written communication -- where you can easily check and proof what you've written -- is an indicator of poor attention to detail in general.

Damn, was going over my post and my browser posted it when i hit enter (yes, I made the mistake of alt-tabbing to another window and then back!).

> "If you don't even know the difference a company name and the technologies of that company..."

Should read: "If you don't even know the difference between a company name and the technologies of that company ..." :)