This article originally appeared on the British contractor's website IT Contractor.

Indeed. Reeks of a couple of geezers down the pub having a laugh.

This post is just for entertainment, innit?

...I've had one who said he was just visiting old friends when I was put through to his extension...

Ha ha!

"Contractor's lie when you ask them what their previous rate was."

So do the recruiters on there costs, these recruiter clowns need to be more transparent on the costs.

SD

1. Recruiters lie about the Jobs they have.

2. Recruiters lie about the rate they get.

3. Recruiters dont hire australians.

4. Recruiters lie about future job prospects.

5. Recruiters Lie about contract extensions.

6. Recruiters lie about being ethical.

7. Recruiters lie about every thing.

SD

I guess they are talking about IT contractors?! ....try construction or building contractors etc 10x worse and its just the norm. They are years ahead in the tax dodges and rip offs!

1. Contractor's lie when you ask them what their previous rate was. It would be more honest of them to say that they think that this is irrelevant

well its "irrelevant", then why do you ask?

In todays world honesty is an obstacle if you want to move ahead professionaly and financially.

Consider answering all questions honestly when attending a job interview. Would you be hired?

You could create a top ten dirty tricks for Permanants as well.

For Managers you could create a list of the top 20 Dirty Tricks.

I've often received calls from recruiters on having applied for a job. After some chit-chat about experience, rates etc. they say that they are coming up with a short-list of candidates.

Essentially that list is in order of rates - lowest first. If the recruiter only presents the cheapest candidates first and he gets selected, does he really care whether he's proving the best candidate..

At the end of the day, its all about how much one can make.

I meant 'providing' the best candidate

This comment was removed as it contained offensive content.

If you feel confident go out there and find the jobs on your own. It can be done.

Basically they exist because of supply and demand, remove the demand and the supply goes.

Here's a little mathematical formula that might help you answer these questions:

If:

A B C D E F G H I J K L M

N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

is represented as:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21

22 23 24 25 26

Then:

H-A -R -D-W-O -R -K

8+1+18+4+23+15+18+11 = 98%

and

K -N -O -W-L -E-D-G-E

11+14+15+23+12+5+4+7+5= 96%

But ,

A-T -T -I -T -U -D-E

1+20+20+9+20+21+4+5 = 100%

And,

B -U -L -L -S -H-* -T

2+21+12+12+19+8+9+20 = 103%

AND, look how far a** kissing

will take you.

A-* -* -K -I -S-S -I -N-G

1+19+19+11+9+19+19+9+14+7= 118%

So, one can conclude with mathematical certainty, that While Hard work and Knowledge will get you close, and Attitude will get you there, it's the Bullsh*t and A** kissing that will put you over the top.

Har har. ALex the new Maccas. Recruiter dirty tricks always the sheeps in lambs clothings.

Hawkwind mathematicals formula not calculate GL effort and the high skill. Always >= 120% mates.

GL and pals:

30% less pay = 95% less productivity + 300% more maintenence.

GL = UnemployedITer

DOLE MAN.

Myki software over engineered.

Rumors are the sacked developers are saying the software is slow and over engineered

Despite the serious recession Peoplebank are brining in 200 foreigners....

Peoplebank to hire 200 foreigners

I guess that'll boost their share price.

Well, 200 hundreds 457 IT workers in year. I think for average Australian University is no more 200 people graduating in the year in IT. So just one recruitment agency screwing job prospects for all graduates in IT, in average University.

Yea guys and gals, please enrol in IT , stay in IT , skill shortage, you know..

why are you congratulating the agent ?? - the CORRECTIONS he has made are things that he should have done right from the start.

Also, would he have done them if you hadn't highlighted them on this web-site - with the prospect of further (bad) publicity if he hadn't ??

yours sceptically....

No surprise. Check the Price History chart at the ASX : PEOPLEBANK AUSTRALIA LIMITED price history chart

Nice graph Hawkwind. PBA stock look like flight paths of Quantas jet with missing landing wheel. Best prepares for crash land position and air masks.

GL

Yes indeedie!

Check the other headhunter jocks while you are at the ASX site. There is a pattern emerging. It could not have happened to nicer bunch of folk.

Public documents released to the ASX on 27 Feb 09 show a PBA director personally holds 15,578,448 shares. So doing a few sums:

Approx Value in Jan 2007 @$1.39 = $20.85 million.

Today's value @$0.38 = $5.9 Million. Ouch!

Solution = claim skills shortages to bring in cheap labour to boost company profits and struggling share price.

Solution = claim skills shortages to bring in cheap labour to boost company profits and struggling share price.

That is actually the cause of the ICT Recruitment industry's demise, especially over the past 2 years.

A lot of the IT jobs shortage is due to a lack of long-term commitment to genuine IT development. All ICT recruiters have ALL off-loaded highly experienced local talent in favour of itinerant workers, leaving them with no ongoing intellectual capital.

>>Today's value @$0.38 = $5.9 Million. Ouch!

Tomorrow's value @$0.001 = $15,000 ???? The CEO's company car might have to be a Datsun 180B.

CLARIUS GROUP LIMITED (CND)

TALENT2 INTERNATIONAL LIMITED (TWO)

HAMILTON JAMES & BRUCE GROUP LIMITED (HJB)

HITECH GROUP AUSTRALIA LIMITED (HIT)

AMBITION GROUP LIMITED (AMB)

ROSS HUMAN DIRECTIONS LIMITED (RHD)

SEEK LIMITED (SEK)

"PL/SQL - Oracle Development Guru

Major financial services Organisation

Very good contract rates

Long term options

PL/SQL - Oracle Development Guru.

I require a senior PL/SQL - Oracle senior design and development expert.

Long term contract opportunities with an industry leading financial services organisation.

Applicants must possess expert knowledge of Oracle development suites.

Applicants must have 6+ yrs comercial PL/SQL development experience

Some exposure to Wealth Management highly recommended

Oracle Portal, BPEL, ESB (SOA Suite).

No timewasters please

Full resumes in WORD format to : xxxx.xxxx@reedglobal.com / 02 8083 8906 "

Totally unnecessary comment by this recruiter. It simply shows the arrogance of this recruiter.

Hawkwind highly correct. GL and Hawkwind with past troubles. But always to agree against recruiter.

Why don't these recruiters get with the times and ask for resumes in a spammed email with spelling mistakes from another country? That's where they seem to hire from....!

Abstract:

Despite significant public, media, and academic interest in offshoring, there has been very little data available through which to assess how offshoring has affected US-based information technology workers. In this study, we use data from two new, nationally representative surveys to examine how offshoring has already affected the US based IT workforce, and to test the hypothesis that offshoring is making interpersonal skills more valuable for US-based IT workers.

Our survey results show that 40% of high-technology firms offshore work, and about 30% of all firms that offshore send IT work overseas. Among the IT workers surveyed, about 8% report ever having experienced offshoring-related job displacement, double the average offshoring-related displacement rate across all other worker types, but still implying an annual offshoring-related displacement rate of only about 1-2% per year.

We also provide evidence that workers in jobs that require face-to-face contact or physical presence are at smaller risk of offshoring-related job displacement, implying that interpersonal skills are becoming relatively more valuable among IT workers. A one standard deviation increase in our skills measure increases the likelihood of having one's job offshored by about 25% above the base rate. Our findings imply that IT workers in functions that involve cross-divisional communication or hands-on support are less likely to be affected by offshoring.

Download the full report here:

How Does Offshoring Affect Information Technology Workers?

Just wanted to clarify that the steps Microsoft and IBM are taking to reduce their US personnel and hire cheap 3rd world lackeys is Because of the recession/depression and not in spite of it.

IBM are even charging staff for tea and coffee now to show what cheap bastards they are.

Sun Microsystems are about to yet another to get gobbled up by Oracle.

This might affect MySQL and others - SO - Watch out for the fallout!

Cyber comment more confusions that Wain Swan next budget night. Hawkwind predict Oracle own Java perhaps correct. But top technologys never becomed died.

GL

Midnight Wisdoms

mate you should be doing something else at midnight rather than coding or spewing your wisdom.

An interesting discussion of how the move to offshoring affected US based IT staff.

Skilled Foreign Workers in the Job Market

Leading Comment:

I’m Not Better Off

I have been in IT for 30+ years and have seen my income drop by 50-60 percent because of H-1B and H-2B visa holders. Whether that is reason enough to be against foreign workers is debatable. What is not debatable, however, is my purchasing power, my standard of living and the net result. While it made the companies’ income statements look good for a period of time, we all know now that it was a mirage, a shell game, cooked books and nothing more. But it made a few people extremely wealthy.

Bottom line is that when a company talks about labor cost as its biggest burden, be prepared to tighten up because they will cut cost and there’s nothing you can do. And we all know how vile, corrupt, bought and paid for our politicians are.

New York Times?

New York Times is a propaganda machine. They specialising in kind of ”balanced”, ” human touch” anecdotic stories and sometimes sound a little “dissent” in not so important issues. And they good at it. But they always, always writing in the interests of rich establishment.

I would prefer for information even Murdoch’s Wall Street Journal to NYT. At least these guys are open cannibals and do not trying to hide that.

Hey bstd,

NY Times may be a mouthpiece for elitists who publish "all the news that fit to print", but this piece is mainly a comment section which presents a balanced selection of views from Indians working in the US Vs US IT workers affected by the rush to offshoring and outsourcing to H1B Visa holders.

In case it makes any difference, the NYT have been badly affected by the current US depression and are now in $1.3 Billion dollars worth of debt. Ref: $1.3 Billion dollar death rattle

For an alternative to NYT, CNN and BBC, see FKN News

The big mythical theme on this site that agencies hire from overseas is a complete joke. Here is the reality:

- Overseas workers carry a stigma of poorer education;

- Overseas work history is often disregarded completely and employers throw away candidates without local experience;

- Overseas workers tend to have an immediate assumption made that their communication skills are inferior - I rarely see an employer take someone with average to poor comms;

- Most agencies cannot sponsor anymore - the requirements are too tough. Those that do sponsor are really for niche skills: rarer SAP modules or Oracle E-Business implementations. Why? Because everyone who is good here in those areas has a job;

- Even for the agencies who can sponsor, it's a hassle; long wait times, poor ability to reference in most cases.

Agencies refer candidates who sell well to clients, i.e. proven skills, local markets preferred, reasonable rates (too cheap and the candidate is often assumed to have poor skills), and good communicators/interviewees. If you have everything bar the last one, i.e. you present poorly, have bad interaction skills or are an odd ball, you're going to struggle.

I know a lot of people on here like to play pretend and blame foreign workers for them not getting a job, but the reality is, foreign workers tend to be a last resort. In the current market there are plenty of locals again, so I cannot see the reason for wanting to sponsor anyone unless a skill set is particularly niche and unavailable.

Find another excuse...

P

@Perusal

Actually, it's not the "sponsored" foreign workers coming into Australia to steal jobs that is most perplexing. That is not to say they are not problematic because the local bodyshops (aka local front companies of BPOs like Satyam & InfoSys) have made it possible to ferry Indian cheap labour in & out of the country periodically. Don't tell me YOU don't know that.

That's besides the point though.

It's the fact that most ICT jobs are offshoreable nowadays and have been steadily permanently departing our shores to far cheaper 3rd world destinations like India.

Victorians government Myki stuffes up again,

Can you believe it, here is a result of offshore cheap software.

If you swipe your card twice, Myki charges twice.

I cant believe this got thru testing. Durrr. Im a qualified software engineer, this will never happen with Myki Durrrrrr.

Read this.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25424491-2862,00.html

durr I wish I had Australian developers not candidates from you know where hired by Peoplebank, infosys, greythorn.

anon

Miki small problem when compare Tuesday night Wain Swan budget. More confusions than government servants of finance department. ASX ready fall from cliff withouts dividend. Like lead turkey from skyscraper.

GL

A serious and wasteful AUS$1.3b IT failure, spent on reinventing the wheel and scope creep at the taxpayers expense.

The New South Wales government cancelled a contract with ERG due to the company not meeting deadlines.

The South Australian state government is currently tendering for their new public transport ticketing system.

Brisbane and Perth already have working "smart" card systems.

TAXPAYERS continue to shell out for a $721,000 myki information trailer, which has been mothballed by the Brumby Government.

Myki bills just keep on rising

The myki system is being provided by Kamco (Keane Australia Micropayment Consortium), a wholly owned subsidiary of the American company Keane Inc. (NYSE: KEA)

A clue to the shambles is that Keane are SEI CMMI Level 5 evaluated.

The Australian governments and the IT industry couldn't organise a f*** in a b****** even if you gave them $50.

Well, ERG developers were over paid cowboys.

There smart card software was also written poorly by offshore cheap developers.

..

Wain Swan budget very unbelieve. Labour solution for billions dollar loss even more spend for temporary deficit. Fix with promise in two years. Very depression mates! Labour govt revenue soon below NZ sheeps farm.

Hello,

Very disenchanted with recruitment agencies in the IT sector. There now deciding who will succeed in IT and who will not.

They deliberately denying me the right to work in Australia as a software developer, Had an interview with Candle recruitment and they said the job was not available any more due to changes in the project, "I have had this statement said to many times before".

Candle prefer offshore cheap workers to save money.

Peoplebank, Greythorn, Infosys also have similar lines.

Ali

they said the job was not available any more due to changes in the project

It is very likely, seeing that we are now in recession, that the project was shelved like many others.

Peoplebank using 457 visas for more foreign workers:

australian_it

The other scenario would be that the contract that was advertised was completely bogus and you got sucked into going to their stupid "interview".

Of course they have no intention to hire an Australian. The govenment allows them to bring in el-cheapo 457's and falsely claim that there is a skills shortage and other DIRTY TRICKS!

It works like this: (video)

Fake Job Ads defraud Americans to secure green cards

Hawkwind, none of those agencies can sponsor 457s anymore. I believe Peoplebank are trying - God knows why when there's no longer a lack of skill around. Infosys isn't an agency. I am sure none of them believe in a skills shortage anymore - but there was definitely one 12 months back, which most contractors played to their advantage.

Ali, the project would have got shelved as Hawkwind says. No agency in their right mind is going to be trying to flog new arrivals to clients when there are so many quality candidates dropping their rates locally. Offshoring? Maybe... hardly going to be a snap decision mid project though.

None of those agencies you mentioned have any need to post bogus jobs or conduct bogus interviews - their databases nationally are all 250,000+ candidates each.

@Perusal - you obviously have not read the Australian IT article pointed to in Glenns post in regards to PeopleBank. They are still claiming a skills shortage in Java, J2EE and .NET as per the Department of Immigration's MODL and have made arrangements to bring in the 457s. The 457 immigration statistics do not reflect your opinion.

@Ali - is the agency still advertising the position?

Hawkwind, I think they are wasting their money. I knew they were trying for it, but did not know they had got there yet. There is plenty of local talent available in both .NET and Java at the moment. Mind you, COOs often are detached from the front line and I doubt he really knows what skills are short; they might be the only skills he knows of ;-)

You could say SAP, Siebel and Oracle E-Business skills are thin on the ground and be fairly accurate, but mainstream developers in .NET and Java is a joke.

I find it VERY hard to believe any client of Peoplebank is going to want to wait for a sponsorship process of up to 8 weeks (used to be 4), while all of their competitors are putting up reasonably priced local talent available immediately. It's not going to happen. It might be useful in 4 years when there's another skill shortage, but in the meantime it's a total waste of money and virtually useless in mainstream IT recruitment.

Leopard predict PBA share price go down faster than Cronulla Sharks chasing barmaid. Certain one mates as the sunset and moon rise.

Nearly a quarter of the nation's big companies expect to shed permanent staff during the next 12 months, while paying more modest wage increases for those who remain.

A national survey of 549 companies - with an annual turnover of more than $10 million - found the number anticipating staff cuts had trebled in the past year.

The finding led the Australian Institute of Management, which conducted the survey, to describe the times as "an increasingly uncertain and challenging economic environment".

The institute's salary survey found 23.5 per cent of companies that responded were planning to shed permanent staff levels during the next year, up significantly from 8.4 per cent in its 2008 survey.

Many big companies 'expect to cut staff'

St Vincent De Paul has recorded a six-fold increase in homeless families looking for help in Sydney as the recession begins to bite.

The increase recorded by the charity is the biggest in 120 years, News Limited reports.

Homelessness increases sixfold: Vinnies

The Federal Government says the number of overseas workers employed on 457 visas last month was at its lowest level in four years.

Numbers for April were 23 per cent down on March and 64 per cent down on September last year.

Skilled migrant level at 4yr low

After looking at this footage, I thought it was a realty show.

This cant be real, it must be fake or to piss off somebody...

If it is real, what are these people trying to do, Destroy a country..., dash our hopes...

This is EVIL, it goes against basic social responsibility.

What is the bottom line here, must be $$$$'s. Has the Obama administration seen this?

Its unbelievable what I saw...

SID

After looking at this footage, I thought it was a realty show.

You mean the one I posted?

This cant be real, it must be fake or to piss off somebody...

If it is IT IS REAL - ie a shonky immigration lawyer coaching recruiters and employers.

What is the bottom line here, must be $$$$'s.

Immigration is worth big bucks - even billions$ in this country.

Has the Obama administration seen this?

Yep - I think I posted stuff about what US Sen. Grasley is doing a while back. The legal reforms are taking place.

Right now in the US I know that some people have having better luck with posting their resume on "Social Media" sites and avoiding the recruiters completely.

Here's some links.

Visual CV

HOW TO: Build the Ultimate Social Media Resume

(Note: Read the comments to this article also.

82 Million User-Generated Content Creators and Counting

Wonder if our recruiters follow these ethics?

I did computer Ethics at Uni, and most were within the law. Notice the speaker always states its within the Law.

Dont these people have family's!. whats wrong with them just look at the arrangement of the seminar, and the way and tone of there voices, this is so CRUEL.

This is got to be stopped..

This must be exposed to the general public, "I have a son about to enter the work force and if the saw this god know what he would think of the world he about to enter.".

Wonder if our recruiters follow these ethics?

Yep - Same industry

Notice the speaker always states its within the Law.

Yep - They leverage the loopholes in the law. Australia has almost the same laws and its been like this for about 15 years.

This must be exposed to the general public

It has many times - its on YouTube via the Programmers Guild who have been lobbying government for years. There are other videos posted by the Guild when you link. The Bush government where blind, deaf and dumb to the whole issue.

"I have a son about to enter the work force and if the saw this god know what he would think of the world he about to enter.".

I suggest that he chooses his career very very carefully!

If you think agencies actually operate this way, you do not understand the industry and are severely deluded. I have already stated why foreign workers are HARDER for agencies to place, and in this market, even harder than before. It just makes no sense, and the video is ridiculous.

The only application I can see where someone would actually make money off placing a foreigner was if their business was integrated with a migration agency. Even then, they would be competing with local candidates supplied via competing agencies - in most scenarios, the locals are going to win.

In case you missed it the first time:

- Overseas workers carry a stigma of poorer education;

- Overseas work history is often disregarded completely and employers throw away candidates without local experience;

- Overseas workers tend to have an immediate assumption made that their communication skills are inferior - I rarely see an employer take someone with average to poor comms;

- Most agencies cannot sponsor anymore - the requirements are too tough. Those that do sponsor are really for niche skills: rarer SAP modules or Oracle E-Business implementations. Why? Because everyone who is good here in those areas has a job;

- Even for the agencies who can sponsor, it's a hassle; long wait times, poor ability to reference in most cases.

Commonly the only people who believe there is some mass immigration scam going on in Australia, within the IT market, are those who have struggled to find a job. They think there must be some other reason than the fact that they have poorer qualifications, were not suited to the job they applied for (even if they believed they were), have poor interpersonal or presentation skills at interview, are awkward cultural fits, or are simply technically inferior. Blame the Indian?

For the majority of job seekers who do find jobs, they do not have any issue with migrant labour because migrants are most often overlooked by Aussie employers.

"The Federal Government says the number of overseas workers employed on 457 visas last month was at its lowest level in four years." ...proves my point... why would you hire 457 labour when there are plenty of good local candidates around at reasonable prices.

To Perusal

Some of the statements have some merit.

Overseas workers carry a stigma of poorer education

The education is rushed through cheap University's in a short time compared to the standard 3 years in a Australian University.

and so on.

What I don't agree with is the interpersonal and technically inferior issue.

There are candidates that are perfectly qualified and answered all questions in the standard manner but still dont get in due to foreign cheaper labour.

your full of hot air

sd

SID, not sure if you read my entire post, but foreign labour is simply less desirable. Saving $5 an hour on a rate for someone with poor comms, poor culture fit, untested references and no idea of the Australian work culture is not something many employers do.

If your experience is with tiny web studios or backyard development shops, I have heard of these places "body-shopping" people on student visas and new arrival PRs, but they are a minority and the jobs suck in the first place.

I've worked in IT and in an agency for the good part of a decade and from what I can see, the "foreign labour" scare is really just a joke pushed by those who need an excuse to explain their inability to secure work here. From an agency perspective, no one ever goes for the cheaper foreign labour over slightly pricier local candidates - clients just don't buy the riskier new comers!

Immigrant labour that is successful is typically skilled in something that local labour is not (as I previously mentioned), and they are rarer high end jobs. That is the only time I see foreign candidates with no local experience beat local resident candidates.

The market is flush with good quality local talent... there is no reason to take foreign candidates to save a few bucks.

We are ingoring your bullshit - it has no substance in the light of of all the evidence!!!!

You can brag about your meagre 10 years in the industry - you are just one of the many flim-flam of common and unprofessional fly-by-nighters and johnny-come-latelies that invaded the industry at the turn of the century.

I have had 30 years in the industry working at the coal-face. You prove that I don't have the skills to get a job - you jerk.

Besides that, the statistics show that after 10 years in the industry, you are past your used-by date.

I will never work in your low-level sector of the industry again.

What is it with you?

Even when people agree (in principal) with your view you still manage to bitch and moan and bring the discussion back the same old crap?

Yeah, yeah, it's all about you and the fact that you have 30+ years experience and that you cannot get a job because agencies will not give you the time of day.

Maybe look within and stop blaming all around you.

SID:

This is EVIL, it goes against basic social responsibility

It is, it's called "following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law".

You've no idea how greed can generate the most depraved of individuals. To them, your family's well-being is worth less than a fart-in-your direction - it's certainly worth far less than the bonus they'll be obtaining from culling your son out of the local workforce.

I have a son about to enter the work force and if the saw this god know what he would think of the world he about to enter

If your son studies IT, then, you ought to have looked out for him more. A 3-4 year costly detour into uni to obtain a worthless piece of paper that barely gives him an edge in the doldrum of an industry here, is hardly a sound ROI. An ICT degree is something that keeps on costing, well after graduation, I can tell you that much.

Steady down mates. Not needs for such comment. Everyone face enough trouble with Rudd runs country. Even mails stimulation checks to dead peoples. GL in high confusion. Turnbull next election to saves.

GL

Midnight Wisdoms

Hawkwind, talk about a meltdown!! You do not seem to have actually read ANYTHING I wrote. I was agreeing with your idea that local talent is superior in many cases, for local jobs. You seem to have snapped at the remarks targeted at those who lack in certain areas and are looking for excuses in blaming foreign labour.

You're exactly the type of fruit-loop I was talking about, going by this latest response! Foreign labour is the least of your worries.

Even if you do get by the interviews, you'd fail a psych test by the looks of it!!

...how you call them "local talent". What talent?

Yes, the no talent is sure coming threw here. Even in the current world order there is work out there for those with talent, and those who don't have their ego stuck 3 feet up their own arse.

So why do I love you guys? Because your misfortune is funny, and it lifts me up each time I read how badly you are doing... :)

Yes, the no talent is sure coming threw here. Even in the current world order there is work out there for those with talent, and those who don't have their ego stuck 3 feet up their own arse.

Ah yes... what are you waiting for? India's calling and she has lots of backed up toilet bowls in the Mumbai CBD awaiting your attention. Do that now, and the community outhouses in the outskirts are yours too.

Don't worry about cholera, I'm sure they could put together some dirt cheap meds for you from the used syringes.

“Because your misfortune is funny, and it lifts me up each time I read how badly you are doing... :)”

Yea . But that obvious. The more workers suffer, the more capitalists prosper and enjoy. That’s trivial .

Because your misfortune is funny, and it lifts me up each time I read how badly you are doing... :)

Schadenfreude n. Pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.

There have been a number of scientific studies of the emotion of schadenfreude which are based on Social Comparison , the idea that when people around us have bad luck, we look better to ourselves. Other researchers have found that people with low self-esteem are more likely to feel schadenfreude than are people who have high self-esteem.

A 2006 experiment suggests that men, but not women, enjoy seeing "bad" people suffer. The study was designed to measure empathy, by watching which brain centers are stimulated when subjects inside an fMRI observe someone having a painful experience. Researchers expected that the brain's empathy center would show more stimulation when those seen as "good" got an electric shock than they would if the shock was given to someone the subject had reason to consider bad. This was indeed the case, but for male subjects the brain's pleasure centers also lit up when someone else got a shock that the male thought was well-deserved.

Brain-scanning studies show that schadenfreude is correlated with envy. Strong feelings of envy activated physical pain nodes in the brain's dorsal anterior cingulate cortex; the brain's reward centers (e.g. the ventral striatum) were activated by news that the people envied had suffered misfortune. The magnitude of the brain's schadenfreude response could even be predicted from the strength of the previous envy response.

Schadenfreude is also regarded as the eighth deadly sin.

"Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth: Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him." (Proverbs 24:17-18, King James Version).

Steady ones boys, perhaps all gone mad catch the swein flue. Best one thens get helps from mad Kevin Rudd mad swein flue minister nurse Roxoff daily media lecture. Rudd boost swein flue panic try hide economy problem the only real sick. Conspiracys mates! Labour govt never honesty hide hundreds billions deficits. Better to sail the swein flue boat to sunset than believes Rudd propogandas.

GL

GL = Cookoo

An interesting poll has been conducted at whirlpool which looks at people's attitudes towards supporting the software industry in Australia.

At last count, an amazing 37.7% supported outsourcing all software development work to India. 40% said that Australia only needs a small elite group of developers.

I find it funny because I don't believe a word that people post here. I think this site is troll vs troll. That's why I find it quite easy to laugh at you.

Starving...

Obviously your on the side of depressing others for the sake of the green back.

Any way my son is on the commerce - business side path rather than programming, he's done a double degree any way he will be telling you what to do soon.

ssd

Obviously outsourcing hurts everyone in Australia, contractors and agencies alike. My experience of outsourcing is that many clients have now given up on outsourcing development and brought it back in house. The biggest complaint has always been that it looked cheaper, but poor communication resulted in poor performance and an "unexpected" higher cost than maintaining local development. Hopefully all employers see the light.

Unfortunately I think internal support is easily outsourced, but development outsourced has major setbacks.

A new report titled, "Australia Outsourcing Services Market Forecast and Analysis 2009-2013", reveals that the total outsourcing market stood at A$6.4Bn in 2008 and is predicted to grow at a 5 year compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 4% over the forecast period 2009-2013.

In particular, Aussie banks have announced they will be moving more IT projects to India (see http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2009/gb2009063_971555.htm).

Companies are using the economic recession as an excuse to outsource even more jobs.

Outsourcing gathers momentum in 2009

SID, I'm not the enemy.

However I've been in the position to see many young, idealistic but misled young people get suckered into IT by the tertiary institutions & spat out into the meat-grinder of ICT oblivion.

Parents professing to care about their children's welfare are lying hypocrites, if the children end up in ICT - especially studying it at uni because by falling for a few hyped-up soundbites, they've essentially doomed them to a life time of unemployment and career frustrations.

....to see many young, idealistic but misled young people get suckered into IT by the tertiary institutions & spat out into the meat-grinder of ICT oblivion.

Approximately 30% of them.

In reality they got sucked in by the IT Industry hype and propaganda and they are still at it as you can see from this report from the ACS who call themselves "the leading ICT professionals' peek professional body".

ACS - ICT Skills Forecast

Its all about immigration and and education - immigration and education - immigration and education.

The Universities and the government were merely the industry's puppet and all those new campus setup, and to a certain extent funded by the industry, don't even exist anymore. A complete failure based on foolish irrational notions and pipedreams.

They are even mislead into thinking that senior professionals are "retiring". On the contrary - we are moving to other will paid real occupations where we are welcomed with open arms. Someone had better tell them that the retirement age is now officially 67, not 37.

In an effort to curtail displacement of Australian workers the government set a Minimum Salary Level (MSL) for temporary visas. Scoff!

Initially the MSL based on a 38 hour week was set at $34 075 per annum.

From 11/02/2004 a separate and higher MSL for ICT immigrants was set at $46 620.

From 09/04/2005 increased to $50 775

From 15/05/2009 increased to $59 480.

These salary levels are a far cry from market rates for a professional with 5 years experience.

Another thing that should accounted for is that in the recent spat over the Indian student riots, revealed that that there is a $2 billion industry involved.

Probably much more than that involved in the temporary visa scam.

You could say SAP, Siebel and Oracle E-Business skills are thin on the ground and be fairly accurate

Thats a load of hogwash. Anyone who knows ANYTHING at all about Oracle (they also own Siebel and now Sun) is that their sales in Australia are pathetic, one of the reasons being is that their prices never change.

Besides that the Oracle E-Business Suite is merely a collection of applications. The end user will have to train their own staff because no individual in their right mind is going to waste huge training bucks resulting in such a poor ROI and small client base - especially the multitude of unemployed/under-employed Oracle DBAs.

When Oracle 10g database was released I went to their seminar. At the end of the presentation it was question time. The main complaint was that many were still running Oracle 7 and worried about migration. Oracle 7 is ancient. The presenter from Oracle (USA) was very amused.

I got sucked into Oracle training around the time Oracle 8i was released which included JDeveloper and BI; and later upgraded to Oracle 9i and 10g. I quickly found out the truth and what a waste of time and money it was.

I have also have a ton of knowledge and experience with other brands of networking and relational databases both on the mainframe and LAN/WAN platforms since the very early 1980's. Still I was ignored some brain-dead halfwits even thought I had no experience with SQL. For Christ sakes, I was there when SQL was born and eventually became an ISO standard (1986).

It is truly sad that someone, supposedly experienced, so completely fails to understand the basic mechanisms of a market economy: it’s the governed by supply and demand – not what the government thinks and definitely what you think. “The unis are the industry’s puppet”. Of course – what do you think??!! The industry creates a demand and the Universities create a supply! “We are moving to other will paid real occupations where we are welcomed with open arms”. Yes, there is competition, although I’m beginning to realize that this seems to be a somewhat misunderstood concept in Australia. How can you be so ignorant and walk around thinking that there are professions where you don’t have to sell what you have and just expect clients and companies to cue for you to pick the one to bless with your (not so unique) services and skills? I mean, seriously – don’t you understand even the simplest things?

“People getting sucked in to the industry” – I’ve never heard such rubbish! You may be unusually immature for your age, but you can’t conclude that people in general are not able to make their own decisions and face the consequences. No one is forced to work in IT, and few are up to it. For those who are, it pays well.

There is no conspiracy against you, and it’s not your age that causes you problems. It’s your attitude! It’s not “unfortunate events” that made you fail in IT. By the sound of it, you and people like you are SUPPOSED to fail! Why don’t you move to China or some other communist country, where jobs and clients are handed out to you in a five year plan? Bet you would like that!

Your remarks about Oracle are just plain silly – it’s the best DB software in the world. But of course, you need to know how to use it.

Yup thought so - there is another illiterate fool with its corporate mumbo-jumbo who cannot even understand and economic report on its industry. It does not have the brainpower to even read and understand the charts. A very good likelyhood of someone who failed pre-calculus mathematics.

You definately know absolutely nothing about Oracle, except for that soundbyte "the best database in the world".

You are a trivial joke

Mark Arbib has been just beeen appointed as Minister for Employment Participation for jobs and government service delivery.

Here is a transcipt of the interview last night on Lateline:

TONY JONES: Now the Government has a Minister for Employment already, it has a Minister for infrastructure. Now it has a new minister, that's you, for jobs and government service delivery, for which I think you have to read infrastructure. So what are you going to be doing that the others aren't doing already?

MARK ARBIB: Well, most of my job is related to the stimulus package. That's the frontline of what the Government is doing in terms of supporting jobs during the global recession. And we've talked time and time again about the 35,000 projects around the country, the infrastructure projects that are getting underway right now, and my job has been, as parliamentary secretary, to coordinate the construction, to work with the State Governments, work with the local councils, work with trade unions, and work with the corporate sector, to get, put those projects out.

So I'm going to continue that work, but also focusing on the jobs element and also I'm going to be working with obviously the job placement agencies in terms of, to ensure that people aren't left behind. So, I mean we really have a - there's a dual plan going on here. We're attempting to stimulate the economy, to support jobs during these times, but at the same time we're not going to leave people behind. So if people do lose their jobs, we're going to give them the support they need to get through these rough times. Because losing your job is not just a loss of income. It's also great stress on your family, a loss of self esteem, and that's where the Government has to step in, step in right away, to ensure that you have the support you need.

Lateline - 09/06/2009: Mark Arbib discusses Rudds Cabinet reshuffle

Hawkwind, it does sound as if your attitude is your worst enemy. If you're as good and experienced as you make out to be, no cheap Indian grad is a legitimate threat to you. But again, if there is something "wrong" with you at interview, and I would guess from the tone of your posts it would be that big fat chip on your shoulder, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

Alternatively, it could be ego; that "I've been in IT for 30 years, therefore I am suitable for heaps of jobs out there" attitude never sells.

I don't know what your specialisation is, or indeed whether you have one at all, but if you do, that is what you should be focussed on. And leave the negativity at the door; if you're that cynical that you have conned yourself into thinking employers and agencies want the cheapest IT labour out there, you do not understand modern Australian corporate attitudes, nor current agency attitudes. Agencies will sell the higher skill/higher rate candidate over the budget option - low rate equals a lower dollar margin. Very simple.

Perusal, it took you this long to work out mr hawk's his own worst enemy?

Hell based on what I've seen him post here not only would I not give the guy a job, but I would actively work to get him fired if we worked together.

anon and Perusal are clearly losers and will always be losers.

There is no way anyone can read articles in a 2D web space using only one of the 5 senses and come to a conclusion about someones psych or persona. This is clearly naive and ignorant. As part of my studies in Psychology at university I studied this extraordinary social phenomenon in my first year. As it turns out the studues shoow that this is only a mental perception conditioned by social conditioning - a bit like the imagery when you read a book.

Besides being completely unproductive and clearly of no benefit to the Australian society and economy, they are clearly uneducated, unqualified and bargin basement value.

Another thing that still has not penetrated these high density skulls and that is I have to intention of working with these fools. I don't even work in the industry anymore and I have no intention of leaving my current means of earning a living, security and financial freedom.

Great Leopard wins the First Prize at Brainbox for online persona. I will bet, like me, GL reserves that persona for use at Brainbox only and bears absolutely no resemblance to reality.

but I would actively work to get him fired if we worked together.

In this event, I have a very special treatment reserved especially for idiots like you. You would end up on your ass.

Clearly this indicates the undercurrent of low level business accumen, immaturity, unprofessionalism, low self-esteem, sub-level mentality and intelligence and immaturity as well as being defamitory.

Instead of your pathetic childlike attempt at character assassination, in order to discredit me, perhaps you should find and post helpful articles that counter mine.

Alternatively, it could be ego; that "I've been in IT for 30 years, therefore I am suitable for heaps of jobs out there" attitude never sells.

Yep - and you REEEEEK of discrimination.

I see, so you have moved on from IT and claim to know what is happening in the industry by posting news links. Wonderful.

"anon and Perusal are clearly losers and will always be losers.

There is no way anyone can read articles in a 2D web space using only one of the 5 senses and come to a conclusion about someones psych or persona."

Is it me, or have you done just that in the quoted text above? The rest of your babble is equally contradictory.

The fact is, you got upset when I mentioned poor social/interviewing skills as a possible reason for someone not getting a job - really upset. I don't need to sat in a first year psych class to work out the trigger for that little eruption.

As to your final comment; when anyone attempts to respond to your posts, even in partial agreement, you attempt your own character assassination. You also intentionally ignore the point of peoples' responses. I always find it amusing when someone accuses another of the act they themselves are originally guilty of, because most of the time it occurs under the shelter of an online forum or medium.

And then to blather on about how educated they are, when they have complained about personal/professional failure in the same forum... it's just icing on the cake really.

Yes, I do discriminate against ego; those with too much of it come last. They embarrass me and waste my clients' time. The best chance you have is to lose the ego... but wait, you've moved on to greener pastures. The taxi companies are much more forgiving.

I see, so you have moved on from IT and claim to know what is happening in the industry by posting news links. Wonderful.

Just like anything, you see more from the outside looking in and it's unbiased. There are many of us ex-iters watching.

Is it me, or have you done just that in the quoted text above?

That is a quote from your post twinkletoes - not mine. You obviously don't know how to quote in a forum.

...you got upset when I mentioned poor social/interviewing skills as a possible reason for someone not getting a job - really upset.

Naturally. I know what the facts are, and the reason AND I WILL RETALIATE!

There were no interviews. The headhunters did not do their job. Simple!

I don't need to sat in a first year psych class to work out the trigger for that little eruption.

Pull your head in - yes you do. There are far too many amateur psychologists around and these type are dangerous in society. I know how to deal with with these cases - its a well known psychological problem.

Seeing you know all about psychology, perhaps you should go and do first year exams without study. You would not have a hope in hell of getting a pass let alone have the ability to answer the first question.

But wait, I don't think you could even get close to the UAI required to enter the course in the first place.

You are full of urban myths and fallacies aren't you?

Like many others in our society, I can't tolerate propeller-heads and those who base their thinking on urban myths and fallacies.

So you can all stop trying to work out the reason why I could not get back into the industry after the 2000-2002 downturn.

The government has full details of the ordeal I faced back then as they do with many others. I provided them with a detailed report and evidence.

This time around though they (Department of Employment Participation) will step in and investigate and will act immediately so that people are not left behind and have to suffer financial difficulties. Not only will they step in, they will step on the perpetrators.

So Peruasal you should be careful YOU don't get your head stepped on. Looks like you might become subject of interest to this new department. Employment agencies most certainly will.

Me thinks, perhaps that you are also yet another sufferer of a psychological malady called Schadenfreude n. Pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others. Indicates envy and a low self-esteem (scroll up for more details)

>>>"anon and Perusal are clearly losers and will always be losers.

There is no way anyone can read articles in a 2D web space using only one of the 5 senses and come to a conclusion about someones psych or persona."

>>Is it me, or have you done just that in the quoted text above? The rest of your babble is equally contradictory.

>That is a quote from your post twinkletoes - not mine. You obviously don't know how to quote in a forum.

****************

The quote was accurate, just not your literacy. I've re-pasted it in the hope you may understand the successive responses this time around. And the point was, you just contradicted yourself.

>>...you got upset when I mentioned poor social/interviewing skills as a possible reason for someone not getting a job - really upset.

>Naturally. I know what the facts are, and the reason AND I WILL RETALIATE!

Except I was not aiming it at you specifically. It was a common list of behavioural flaws that show up at interview. The fact that you then blew up simply showed that these flaws struck a nerve and were a little too close to home.

As for you not getting any interviews, even with an agency, well there are plenty of reasons. Some may be your own fault (i'd bet money...), others environmental (timing, market conditions). Just because you did not get to interview, you blame an agency for not doing its job. I would probably make the opposite remark; you did not get to interview because the agency WAS doing its job.

I am sure there is no point in elaborating, as you're not the type to listen. You already know everything about everything anyway...

As for the rest of your post, it fell into a few odd tangents; posteuring about sitting some psych classes, writing a report for a government department eight years ago, waiting for the DEP cavalry to come and announce that you are the best IT contractor ever and that grave injustices were perpetrated against you, me getting squashed, me deriving pleasure from misery etc.

Rather than get suckered into replying to all of newly concocted drivel, I will refocus you on a few earlier, key points:

- Migrant labour has little bearing on the success of quality local labour finding employment - if you have good skills and interview well, you will beat migrant labour in the AU market nearly every time;

- Poor candidates fail for many different reasons;

- Downturns allow companies to trim the bottom end of their performers;

- If you could not get back into the industry during a downturn, do not generalise and blame foreign labour, agencies, employers or anyone else. There may be specific examples of you having barriers to employment, but the industry is large and there is no way, if you were a quality candidate, that every door was shut to you permanently. More realistically, you did not present or qualify as a good candidate.

Given the intensity to which you attempt to find blame everywhere/everyone else but yourself, and the rabid defensiveness of generic criticism not aimed directly at yourself, it is fairly obvious that you are your own worst enemy.

I won't take any notice of your excuses for incompetance. It is so widespread in the IT Recruiting industry, its common knowledge as is ageism.

writing a report for a government department eight years ago

Listen jerk - if you want to quote me - how's about making it accurate. There is nowhere in any of my posts WHEN I informed government.

Looks like you are clutching at straws.

Except I was not aiming it at you specifically.

Why post this crap in reply to my post then?

If you could not get back into the industry during a downturn, do not generalise and blame foreign labour, agencies, employers or anyone else.

During? - I said after.

Besides that, during the downturn you recruiter jerks imported cheap foreign labour hand over foot - meanwhile local IT unemployment was rated in industry employment surveys at twice the national average (12%).

There are estimates that approximately 10% of the IT workforce have been displaced.

This was highly profitable for recruiters - this is even reflected in share price history.

ITs share of the 457 visa numbers is 14%. And no I don't blame Indians either, because I know very well they are well down the list on nationalities which is published regularly by the government. I do know the numbers.

MARK ARIB .... So I'm going to continue that work, but also focusing on the jobs element and also I'm going to be working with obviously the job placement agencies in terms of, to ensure that people aren't left behind.

The job placement agencies now need to be supervised and monitered by a whole new government department set up last week.

I think thats hillarious. Only morons need to work under supervision. No doubt the Ministry will uncover/discover a few problems. Also I doubt they will accept recruiter's corporate mumbo-jumbo and pathetic excuses.

Obviously the government has decided on this for ONE important reason and they have plenty of information found in records at Centrelink as well as tax receipts.

Seems a bit strange to post such an offensive and largely pointless article on a site with contractors as their readership base. But whatever.

Ignore it then. It's a minor point but you need to be corrected if you are accusing me of saying something that was in fact written by yourself.

You do raise a good point though - there are a lot of incompetent, fly-by-night recruiters in the industry. Ageism, less so. There are definitely ageist employers out there, and the agencies simply reflect this. I am quite happy to place older staff with fair employers - they deliver fees just the same as young staff. My oldest was 72yo!

I did not quote you, I responded. But if you want the quote to back up what I said, "The government has full details of the ordeal I faced back then as they do with many others. I provided them with a detailed report and evidence."

It's not my fault if you forget what your write from post to post and then say, "There is nowhere in any of my posts WHEN I informed government."

Now, my response you took offence to was clearly not aimed at an individual. My post was in response to SID and was a generic response - it had absolutely nothing to do with you. You did however take it personally because it hit a nerve.

So you ask me why I responded? Because you went off your handle at my post... a meltdown obvious to everyone reading this board. You attacked me as a result, so of course you get a response.

"During? - I said after."

Even worse!! When people were getting jobs again, you couldn't? Is that what you're saying?

The rest of your stats are excuses and largely vague:

- Cheap foreign labour has never been popular, not even back then (see above for reasons mentioned multiple times)

- The share price remark is an outright lie; every downturn sees massive agency profit downgrades, and the last one was not saved by cheap foreign labour

- In a downturn, foreign labour is less attractive to everyone: employers can get cheap domestic labour, agencies can get cheap domestic labour - there is absolutely no sense to it. But nice try at making another excuse for yourself.

I do not think you understand the recruitment industry or the employment market at all with some of these remarks.

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

Department of Immigration stats are vague?

Seeing that you are a recruiter, you would not know what Information Technology or computer science was even if it fell on you head while you were walking down the street.

The share price remark is an outright lie; every downturn sees massive agency profit downgrades

There was no downturn in mid 2007 when you lost the right to sponsor 457s.

(scroll up)

and the last one was not saved by cheap foreign labour

what a childish remark. The employment industry was bringing them in hand over foot back then.

Check the share price during that period.

(scroll up)

Even school leavers have the sense not to enter and IT related degree.

"Seeing that you are a recruiter, you would not know what Information Technology or computer science was even if it fell on you head while you were walking down the street."

And how exactly did you come to this conclusion? It is my experience that many recruiters come from the industry they recruit for, myself included. It is utterly childish to make such a generalisation, but again reaffirms my comments on your lack of industry knowledge.

"There was no downturn in mid 2007 when you lost the right to sponsor 457s."

Who said there was a downturn in 2007?? But you're exactly right about the absence of any affect on share price in 2007 when the sponsorship disappeared, because no agency relies on foreign labour. Are you trying to shoot holes in your own argument?

Share prices were up in 2007 because the market was incredibly strong and there was a massive skills shortage. It had nothing to do with 457s, as you so helpfully pointed out.

Share prices drop in market downturns (I should not have to be explaining something this simple to a know-it-all like you), i.e. now and when you couldn't get back into IT... 2001 - 2003. The time you were accusing agencies of importing labour but share prices were at all time lows.

Nice work, you get worse the further we go.

Perusal, your problem is, that you would not have a clue on how to read a stock chart.

You even have my stockbroker laughing his head off.

I do not think you understand the recruitment industry or the employment market at all with some of these remarks.

Why in the the hell should I? I am not the least bit interested in understanding the employment services industry.

But I DO understand the obvious.

Alternatively, it could be ego; that "I've been in IT for 30 years, therefore I am suitable for heaps of jobs out there" attitude never sells.

Yes, I do have n Ego and its fully intact. You are talking to a third year Psychology student.

Before you use BIG technical words like Ego you should understand what they mean. You have used this one several times but only indicates the low-level education you've had.

The organised realistic part of the psyche is the "ego".

Thanks for your guesswork, but I do relatively well with my stock portfolio, and I don't seem to need the services of a stockbroker.

What I find rather sad is that you are so obsessed with a forum, relevant to an industry you are eight years separated from, that you would actually show it to some poor stockbroker. Do you think he actually cares? You really do have a few loose screws.

My comment re: your lack of industry knowledge refers to your constant commentary on it. Your admission that you know nothing, "I am not the least bit interested in understanding the employment services industry," is at least an honest one.

Re: ego, you are very clever to regurgitate a blanket definition of the term, but you misunderstand, or purposefully misconstrue the use of the word in the quotation.

It is interesting you responded twice to the same quote though; must have struck a nerve. I think you probably know your ego and negative/cynical personality have worked against you in the past. Or do I need a degree in psychology to make such a conclusion?

Thanks for your guesswork, but I do relatively well with my stock portfolio, and I don't seem to need the services of a stockbroker.

But you do not know how to read stock charts - thats a proven.

What I find rather sad is that you are so obsessed with a forum, relevant to an industry you are eight years separated from

I am not separated from the ICT industry at all. You have absolutely no idea and I like it that way.

that you would actually show it to some poor stockbroker.

No - he showed it to me.

My comment re: your lack of industry knowledge refers to your constant commentary on it. Your admission that you know nothing, "I am not the least bit interested in understanding the employment services industry," is at least an honest one.

So goddamned what - who in the hell do you think you are. Your industry is irrelevant.

Re: ego, you are very clever to regurgitate a blanket definition of the term, but you misunderstand, or purposefully misconstrue the use of the word in the quotation.

Misconstrue? The word Ego has only ONE meaning. You don't know what the you are talking about even before we start talking about language abuse common amongst those who have had a low level education.

Now you even have now Sigmund Frued turning over in his grave with your damned insults against people who have more knowledge and experience than you.

"But you do not know how to read stock charts - thats a proven."

Are you halleucinating? Did you imagine this event up? I thought someone as intellectually able as yourself would understand the meaning of the word "proven".

"No - he showed it to me."

Your stockbroker got on to this website and showed you my post? I feel safe claiming that you are full of it.

"Your industry is irrelevant."

Yet you can't help but talk about it... eight years on!

"Misconstrue?"

Yes, IN THE QUOTATION.

Re: ego, you are very clever to regurgitate a blanket definition of the term, but you misunderstand, or purposefully misconstrue the use of the word in the quotation.

I did not give you the definition you fool.

"The organised realistic part of the psyche is the "ego""

then...

"I did not give you the definition you fool."

Forgetting what you typed from post to post is a repeat offence for you.

Your stockbroker got on to this website and showed you my post? I feel safe claiming that you are full of it.

No he knows nothing of this place. He informed me of the 2007 drop in share price of various agencies on the ASX a fair while ago.

Yes, IN THE QUOTATION.

Like I said - your take on the meaning of the word has no meaning, no matter now hard you try. Good example of language abuse.

IQ < 50

Listen moron you have NO idea what Ego means or where too look.

Nope that is not the definition of ego - not even blanket.

In any case it does not matter - you don't have one.