I think I agree completely with the comments of the Not so naive guy

Age discrimination maybe does exist. But also is it the older people's problem themselves. We always here the order guys on this forum go on about how they earn less now than they did in the later 1990's. That was a silly boom. Have older people got unrealistic expectations around their worth now?. If you price yourself out of the market, then don't complain. I've can easily choose between multiple offers on about $550/day PAYG (non-direct) contracting (6.5yrs experience in IT). Plenty of work out there.

anyway, hopefully won't have to worry about age. Invest, and retire early (maybe by about 42-45).

Why do 1st-2nd experienced IT people expect to be payed the same as a 10 year experience Iter.

At my work they whinge all the time when they hear I earns lots.

Why cant they wait there turn in 5 years time.

I had to survive on 32k - 42k in my first 4 years in IT.

SO WAIT YOUR TURN you selfish freaks.

MC

Back in 2000 I was on hiring panels that, despite my objections, would not hire older (i.e. over 40) developers for the very reasons that you outlined Paul.

Even during informal beers with recruiters after I left IT the topic would routinely come up and admissions would be openly made that companies (big and small) have very strong aversions to hiring developers over 40 however those same companies welcome applications from lawyers, CEO's, CFO's and the like from people who are over 45.

there is no farkin way i'm doing this job when i'm over 45

i'll have a heart attack

it's too farkin stressful

i've been at it 15 years and it's got to have taken its toll already. i know i've got high blood pressure - the doctor told me

Brownie with right idea. Leopard by 45 to be in palace feeding grape from hand of pretty womans. No needs for midnight coding forever mates. Coding just ones means to ends. Past certain age though become jobs for dogs. Father time cruel for those stay to long.

Cast your eyes around the average IT shop, and you'll find that most people are in their 20's, with the remainder being in their early thirties, with just one or two outliers (if any).

This was true 10 years ago, and is true today. It was first documented by Professor Norm Matloff in the 90s. Last week, a UK journalist revealed that he knew UK recruiters were actively discriminating against anyone over 35 for technical roles.

Is this fair? Hardly. Although some IT people allow their skills to lapse, others continue to sharpen the saw.

Consequently, I think techies should be looking for roles that directly interface with the business by the age of 35.

I agree with that because that's what i've done. Try to get more business knowledge. I find the younger programmers aren't really interested. They want to pick up the latest Web Frameworks, etc, etc. So did I, 10 years ago.

The companies actually want the programmers to become more business aligned, so i'm doing what we both want. Whether I will benefit remains to be seen.

At 35, I'm definitely at the upper end of the age range of programmers in the bank. There are a few that are older but not many. Vast majority are mid-20's and the are a lot sharper than me. I have to have a think about things and get back to them.

Make hay while the sun shines. I reckon 30-40 are the peak earning years for a programmer. So, you should be bringing in the top dollar available during those years! We're like top sportsman in terms of our career trajectory (and similar in no other way sadly).

This time I have to agree with Brownie.

At 32 I'm not far off the tipping point, so have found myself a development role with a higher business interface.

It's definately a lot more demanding than other IT roles I've had (particularly around year end), but as I'm keen to learn Treasury, it works for both parties.

If you think about is, for every 10 programmers you might have 1 architect, 1 team lead and 1 project manager.

Those three jobs seem to have a life span into the mid/late-40s. Programmers seem to bail out around mid/late-30s.

So, assuming everyone is on a level pegging - you stand a 30% chance of having a decent career post-40 if you stay in IT.

You have to give yourself an edge and from what i've seen it's in increasing business skills, not technical.

Add to that the fact the technology is getting easier to deal with year after year, you have to read the signals and act, or suffer the consequences when it's too late to do anything.

Age Discrimination is alive and well in the UK according to this article

MK - 550 p/d??? So it is people like you that dump the prices in our industry?

Dumb ass, uneducated Auzzie manager goes: "Duuuh, only 550 for a contractor I found on the street - why pay more to a super consultant guru when I have cheap labor like this. And I bet the quality will be the same. Duuuh"...

..but back to the topic...

"Age discrimination" does axist, but it's not really age disrimination as such. It's about margins. Older people demand higher salaries, but only a certain price can be sold to clients, so older consultants = lower margin.

Sad but true.

When i started 15 years ago it was almost impossible to be a guru under 30. The web was not around and those guys had knowledge that was borne out by the lines on their brows. They learnt everything they knew through experience. The technology was hard to pick up, C++ and you had to do it by either reading books or being shown.

Compilers couldn't be downloaded for free.

These days, guys are coming out of uni with all that knowledge under their belts already. A lot of stuff is on google and can be looked up rather than learnt through experience. All the tools are free. People are able to get to a high level of skill a lot younger.

This is a good thing for the world.

Half the team is under 25. The guy doing interviewing is 25. He wants people he can lead and also get along with. Why would he hire a 40 year old? How many 40 year old friends does such a person have?

MR B, are you one of the ones that complain you can't get work al the time?? I said $550/day as PAYG, not direct contracting (that's nearly $70/hr), and on only 6.5yrs experience in IT. Sure, if you go direct, you can get maybe $80-90/hr, because you don't have the agent cut.

If you want to be pricey, they complain. It's realistic about where the market is at, so can easily choose between the rolls I want to take, and can get a contract on maybe a 70% skills match as well.

Sorry, its early Monday morning, and I didn't check my grammar too well.

"If you want to be pricey, then don't complain. I'm realistic about where the market is "

I have to admit that $550 is not exactly "up there" when it comes to rates.

The guys here range from $750 to $1300 with most of them at around $900. Me - I'm on $1k a day (up from $800 or $100ph a few months back). Mind you, I had to change places for that "jump" (since when does someone get anything more than crumbs as a pay rise?). Yes, I am through an agent.

$550 is nor not quite the lowest rate either. I've seen $400 pd - but this is more for a "support" role that is about to be outsourced anyway.

In any case it's not really about the daily rate that gets you the job. A lot of things play a *part* including age, daily rate, timing, luck, what tie you're wearing, etc. But mostly timing and even more so luck.

Mind you, if you're getting the lowest daily rate in your area then you are doing yourself, your colelagues and your organisation a disservice. There are many different reasons for this and I think it's been covered in another topic a while back.

After all, money is never a motivator; it is a de-motivator.

***

So ... back on topic ...

I find that as I am beginning to show my age (ie the salt and pepper look) I am finding myself in more senior roles more easily. As a plain ol' programmer, however, (boy! those were the days!) I find it difficult to secure a role for two reasons:

* My CV. The experience scares 'em. Therefore they assume I charge too much or else "something must be wrong". Should I dumb it down? Perhaps, if I must - and for now there is no need.

* My rate. I wish I can win lotto and work part-time on the military projects (again). They were fun but would not pay the mortgage.

In the meantime a couple of grads have joined my organisation and although cheap are quite wonderful to work with. Always eager and quite bright. Of course, this seems to be the exception.

I've worked with people of all ages (I'm only 29 myself).

I must confess to being disappointed with Paul assertion that older people are less quick on the ball. I strongly disagree with that - I have been taught and continue to learn from my older and more experienced colleagues.

I have found people of all ages have incredible in depth knowledge and skills. Indeed the more diverse the team you have, the better off you will be in the long term.

To cast someone aside because they are over a particular age is very short shorted but seems to be the way to do business in some areas of the industry.

Laz, I'm not the one constantly complaining about not being able to get jobs in IT. If you can get 1K/day with your experience, than that's good. I like my $550/day 9-5 job, and not having to constantly learn new stuff on evenings and weekends. I might spend 2-4hrs a week learning new stuff, otherwise just pick things up on the job as I go. You might get payed more, but then you are probably using more personal time as well, learning new stuff, so in the end, per hr, it might be the same. How much do you value you personal time. Another complain I see on Brainbox, is the amount of time that IT people have to put in outside of normal hours.

Age is not relevant. I've seen late teens early 20's who are extremely skillful \ knowledgeable but couldn't get a job because they "lacked experience".

I've seen late 40's early 50's who have been quick on the ball, able to think logically but couldn't get a job because they are "too slow, have to much experience."

I've seen 20 something to 40 something self professed "gurus" (read up themselves wankers) who seem to be able to get jobs even though they have no skills, little knowledge, could not think logically and slow off the mark.

Age has everything to do with employability, but always for the wrong reasons.

Basically the wrong people are in charge of hiring. Most can not pick talent and use stereotypes as their basic guidelines...

What skillset is this for?

Jeez. I heard the market was taking a nose dive..!

Good on you if you can get over $1000 p/d as an employee or contractor. However I found that I needed to start my own business to do that...

I'm now bypassing all recruiters \ employers \ any other blood suckers and am going right to the company in need direct.

It also means that provided I manage my loads correctly, if I want to have a relaxing day, or jump on here to annoy you guys it's easy, and there is no boss looking over my shoulder...

Like I said earlier and in other posts: it's all about timing and luck. And leverage. I forgot to mention leverage in my other posts.

My previous role ($800 pd) was within an integration team in the WebSphere arena. My role was a "bitsa"; a bit of this and a bit of that. I got this role while I was already gainfully employed as a permie. This rate was negotiated for a couple of months. I was in no hurry. Besides, knowing that a competing organisation's integration team were paying their contractors $450pd made it all worthwhile.

My integration role varied from engaging with projects, scoping-out requirements and quote, to actually designing (architecture, etc) and later, developing and unit testing and test support. It was at this point (ie developing, unit testing, etc) when I decided to leave for another role (the $1k pd).

The reason why I was originally asked to do development as there was so much work going on - at which point my contracting colleagues from another organisation joined at around $900 pd (the client was/is desperate).

Anyway, my current role - which, by the way, I'm about to leave for a permie role - was negotiated directly with the programme manager, who asked me to use one of their preferred recruiters (from a panel). He knew my expected/desired rate and said it was no problem (should have asked for more! oh well) as he already has the likes of IBM in there (who charge more).

Well ... the "preferred" recruiter said that I could make lots of money (up to $600pd!). Obviously he was not briefed on my expectations. I said no deal and he went on to say $750 and that's the best that the market could offer. I told him he was way off the mark and think I heard him say $900 as I was hanging up.

After a number of phone calls, I finally managed to get my own agent in at my desired rate.

As for what I do? Right now? Not much. The project is winding down and I have already handed-in my notice. A couple weeks to go!

OK OK. To answer your question as to what we do here to "deserve" the $750 to $1300pd is pretty much what any other IT shop does; requirements-gathering, design, project plans, chasing-up progress in Bangalore, etc. Personally, I have very little to do with Integration nowadays. I have created a number of design documents and helped people with document reviews, managing requirements and reviewing vendor SOW. Hell, some of this stuff I've handed to the new grad.

Originally, I was *supposed* to come in to be the design lead, setting standards, providing governance, etc. But I ended Up tying up a few loose ends before the project wound-up.

God I ramble on!

“OK OK. To answer your question as to what we do here to "deserve" the $750 to $1300pd is pretty much what any other IT shop does; requirements-gathering, design, project plans, chasing-up progress in Bangalore, etc.”

Not sure, if I get it right, does it mean, that actual coding done in Bangalore? . I mean not design, architecture and project management , but coding?

We're starting to go off topic here ...

Yes, there is a push to have Bangalore to do as much work as possible.

Right now they are doing admin stuff such as setting up schedules, connectivity, batch runs, etc.

There is no way in hell they are able to create software or do design work - or anything project-related in terms of build - over there. Support: "yes", Project work: "no" (or not good enough).

They do come over here and do "OK" - but doing things like that over there ... well ... it just doesn't work - primarily because of geography and (work) culture.

Anyway, to "try" and get things back on topic. I find that the kind of "tasks" pushed to Bangalore were once performed by the "older generation". The "older" ones either moved-on or came back here as contractors on the rates mentioned in the previous posts.

Look, not all the "older ones" survived - but that is more to do with reputation (eg not suitable) than rates or age. Some who have come back are contractors are just as good as anyone else and making good money. The median age here is 40-something. I'm in my 30s with a few in their 50s and and even *fewer* in their 20s.

Why are you guys slagging off someone for $550pd? That is way above an average income and as far as I can see, he has not said what skillset he is employing.

Typically, of you're on $1000+ per day, I'm only interested in you for SAP roles, Programme Management, or Project Director contracts. PMs typically can be got for $800-$900pd, and no one in development is worth anywhere near that.

But yes, the guys up there do whinge alot, because - shock horror - there are not a million roles out there to apply for paying that.

Remember to compare apples with applies. $550 for a intermediate/senior dev role is very much market rate.

there is no architect contract market, PM's can get 1000/day but programmers max out at 800/day in Aus, and in this market that would be top dollar.

unless you are doing a niche european banking skill.

this Laz geezer is full of sh1t.

Excuse me? So I'm full of shi'ite, right?

$550 pd as a salary employee is very good. As a contractor well, yes, it depends.

I know what the market is - but really only related to the things I'm interested in.

So ... I don't know what the going rate is for helpdesk, tech support, testers, .net developers, etc.

But I do know what architects, solutions designers, SMEs, developers and anyone else working in the integration arena. This includes TIBCO (BW not GI), BEA/Fusion, WebSphere, Vitria, etc.

Therefore if you command "only" $550 pd AND it's in the integration arena THEN age does not play a part; you WILL be gainfully employed - but as one of THE cheapast contractors. Banking or no banking experience.

If there is no Architecture market then the likes of Enterprise Architects (the company - not the domain) would not be required.

I agree that $1000/day for PMs and $800/day for developers are top dollar - which is why I mentioned earlier that it was all about timing and luck. I don't see too many (or any?) organisations paying in the range I mentioned in my earlier post.

What the hell? Why do I need to justify what I am saying? You can re-read my previous posts. Look for key words such as desperate, leverage, timing and luck. If I seem to be condescending then I apologise. I didn't mean to slag off someone on $550. There are others who are getting far less and probably for different roles. It's all relative and it's not about what you're worth: it's what you can get away with.

I stand by my comments/rant earlier about rates. If you are charging less than the others in your area then you are doing yourself, your peers and the organisation a disservice.

Don't sh1t me.

I agree with several people here who say most IT workers bail out, or should bail out, of the IT industry as early as possible if they get that feeling that they won't be able to retire earlier in life - say in their 40s. Sorry if that makes anyone here angry or sad, but I say that to try and help, not harm.

We have to be realistic, everybody has a shelf life... and then there is marriage and children, etc etc. Professional athletes typically bow out of their sporting careers in their early 30s, from what I have seen and read. The human body and mind can only last for so long, it is natural. Nobody can keep being the caffeine charged nerd working 12 hour shifts forever.

I was one of those bottom-of-the-barrel type junior programmers before I changed careers, and young enough to change careers, so I was lucky. It sucks to lose the comfy job where I sit in a chair, memorised specs or code examples and then integrated ideas into existing products for loads of money every week. I was a software engineer on 80k in the USA when my boss told me he would replace me with a few developers from India for less than half of that price, and that I should get another career. He was my friend and he was being nice to me, even though I was pissed off at him at the time.

Teaching, accounting, or other hands-on professions are better for people who can't seem themselves retiring early from IT. I am choosing the teaching and accounting route, and so far its been pretty good. Good luck to everyone else who wishes to change careers as well :).