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I agree that recruitment bashing seems to be a sport on this site, but all I see this article as is a way of getting a response.

Now to tear apart your arguments for a second

"The facts are that a recruitment consultancy firm typically has very high expenses including rent, phone, wages, office support staff, advertising and sundries." - If these things are such a major cost you really should be looking into closing down. These things are the fairly basic operating costs which all businesses have. If you want a business with high costs come and work for me, I also have development costs, which I can assure you are many times more than the "standard operating costs" you have listed here, and yet I can still make a very tidy profit.

"Essentially, clients (the market) continue to pay recruitment agencies only in the event of a successful placement" - Welcome to the world of sales. I run a business, and guess what, I can put in many hundreds of hours of hard work, which cost me thousands and not get a penny for it, and yet other times I barely have to open my mouth and I get given as much money as I want. This is nothing special.

"This puts pressure on recruitment consultants to make placements month in and month out and, for the life of me, this is something that I personally have struggled to achieve." - Once again you should probably be looking at your business model. A recruitment firm is something that can be created with minimal capital investment. The primary thing you need to get one going is some living money to cover your first 6 months expenses, and enjoy networking events. (Things that other businesses also have to do to get started). The fact that you are worried that you won't be making placements suggests to me your not cut out for a sales role.

"I bring up this subject as I personally am sick of dealing with applicants that have a chip on their shoulder and think it’s ok to deal with me (as a recruitment consultant) as if I were a piece of shit." - Maybe you should be looking at your personality and your handling of situations. Typically General Admin people will not enter with the same suspicion a technical person will have.

"I’ve had applicants complain that I ask too many questions, 3 minutes into a telephone conversation." - Once again maybe you should be looking at your personality and your handling of situations. What sort of questions do you ask? Are they all closed ended or open ended? If your asking only closed ended questions in 3 minutes people will generally feel that your trying to trip them up (which is why coppers \ lawyers love them) open ended questions give someone a place to go so to speak, which means that 3 well crafted closed ended with say 2 well crafted open ended questions will get far more information from someone in 3 minutes than 60 closed ended questions in half an hour.

"Bottom line – if you’re one of those candidates that bring your personal baggage into dealing with a recruitment consultant" - Everyone has baggage, a good sales person can identify this quickly and use it to their advantage. Eg. When people to have a chip on their shoulders, use it to your advantage. Get them to "bad mouth" the recruiter they've used in the past. Agree with them (even if you don't really agree). If done well you will build their trust, and you'll probably be the one to place them.

I can't really be bothered pulling more of your article apart, but honestly I see the problem with yourself not the person your dealing with. Remember your suppose to be the salesman, your suppose to keep the meetings under your control \ guidance \ direction. By the sounds of it, you've failed nicely. I'd suggest you study up on your sales skills.

Finally - "Every recruitment company on this planet is in business to make money" - True, but we all know that, we're not idiots, and hey, IT Consultants are also in it to make money.

UK recruitment agents I've found to be a thoroughly untrustworthy, bunch of liars; the Australian ones have more integrity. The UK ones tend to grill candidates on 'other interviews' the candidates are going for with other agencies, in order to pitch for those opportunities themselves ie working for a candidate and against them at the same time. If you are Aussie going to the UK for the 1st contract, prepared to get screwed.

"In the good times, Crownies for all, but in the bad times, we have to put up with VB." - Welcome to the real world. Every business goes through cycles. With some weeks it's great other weeks your wondering how your going to pay your bills.

I'm the same in my own business. In one week I can earn the same amount at 3 months contracting is a well paid contract. Other weeks I'm wondering how bills are going to be paid. This is the nature of business, if you can't hack it I'm sure you know of a nice safe Office Administration job you can go into.

Paul, Paul, you have totally lost my respect. I have to agree with anon on a lot of his point.

is it really fair to despise those that find us our next job? I can't ever actually remember a recruiter ever "finding" me a job. It's like saying a real-estate agent "finds" you a house to buy. They are just the middleman. They don't do anything in the way of finding. Just like a seller has a house to sell, a company has a position available!. All YOU effectively do is find positions for your agency, as opposed to the client going to another agency.

Second of all, I would have less problem with IT recruitement agents if they actually knew something about the industry that they are recruiting for.

Come on Paul. So many issues affecting IT in Australia at the moment. The release of the Web filtering trial in Australia by Stephen Conroy, redundancies/offshoring at the AFP to name two and this is the best you've got? Throw me a figgin' bone...

Sorry, it wasn't actually me who wrote this one. The author tag is now updated.

..I don't think they are. "Devils spawn" suggests "scary", "mean" and "cunning". Agents are just dumb, incompetent and…simply ridiculous, really…

..oh, and I do se some need for the first. Not for the second, though.

"Recruiters find jobs". Now that sounds funny. You're just in everybodys way - that's all you are. And everyone but you seem to understand that.

It's really hilarious how you refer to companies, who's career sites you have been browsing to sniff up their own job posts, as "my client".

...so I guess you have some amusement value after all. Who would have guessed?

;-))

@ anon#1:-

"These things are the fairly basic operating costs which all businesses have"

- yes I'm aware of that, thanks. Wether or not your business has more expenses is neither relevant nor of interest. I'm making a point about the frequent complaint of high recruitment fees and highlighting that there are reasons for it, that's all.

"The fact that you are worried that you won't be making placements suggests to me your not cut out for a sales role."

- this is just a nasty, cowardly little dig isn't it? You know nothing about me or my sales ability yet you're making judgement calls. Stick with what you know eh buddy.

"I can't really be bothered pulling more of your article apart"

- you seem to have incorrectly used the word "more" as all you've done in the above is make inane comments and herald pure guess work. You have neither pulled apart nor contributed to the discussion at hand.

@Yoda:-

"Throw me a figgin' bone..."

If you have something to contribute, go for it. Or continue whingeing like a little bitch, whatever.

OK, now we have been served a couple of articles from the “Agent side”. I thought perhaps it is time to present something from the “other side”. After all it is us, the IT professionals, that hold up the…I almost wrote “the IT-industry”, but it should really be “the industry”, since not many modern businesses would function very well without IT. Ironically, not even simple type of operations - like an agency. These are my individual views, but I’m sure I speak for more than a few of “us”…..

I’d like to thank “Mr former agent” for sharing your real life experiences from working as an agent. Unfortunately, I can’t say that you presented anything new – what you “shared” is just what many IT professionals already know from their encounters with agencies. So what was meant as a shocking exposure of how dreadful and shameless the [recruitment] industry really is, was nothing but yesterday news, I’m afraid. So much for “agents are usually a step ahead of contractors”….Trust me on this – you’re really not. You just think you are and all you really did was showing how into yourself many of you guys are. “The great former agent “comes out” and addresses the peasants [IT professionals]”. Quite amusing - but yet irritating.

This was followed by another couple on the same topic and then – surprisingly – one in the defence of agencies/ recruiters. This one, not less patronising than the first, “educating” us “unenlightened workers” about the true benefits with agencies. Perhaps it would all be just a bit more credible if it wasn’t written by one? But you are the “sellers”, right. So you should know all about creating credibility?

Again – you don’t. In fact, I have NEVER met one who has the SLIGHTEST credibility. Let me tell you why:

First of all, it takes skill to sell complex services. Fortunately you don’t. You do not sell IT services – you present people who sell AND provide them. So not even the very thing you claim is one of your greatest benefits – isn’t realy there. It is always the contractor’s performance on the interview with the end client that does the selling – NEVER the agent. You sell shit! Or do you actually believe that you’re little “pep and prep” talk before the interview really helps? Think again. We are interviewed all the time – it’s part of our profession. We know more about this than you do.

Second. As already mentioned (and it’s certainly worth mentioning again), not much in society would work without IT. I know this is a bit abstract to you, but mobile phones, e-mail systems, banking systems, insurance systems, traffic control systems, CRM systems – you name it systems – don’t come out of an elephant’s arse. Society RELIES on us to design them, maintain them and look after them. At the same time, it is always the agencies that have to motivate their existence. “But we ARE useful”. “Companies and contractors NEEEEEEDS US”. WE are in demand, not you. Do you really think we are dependent on your sales efforts? Do you really think your “clients” need you to connect with us? I know that you may be getting a headache by now – but THINK again.

Third. You don’t really get it, do you. We’re smart enough to spend our whole days solving complex problems in a BUSINESS environment, in many different industries, interacting with people from different disciplines and with different roles. You have no idea of the extended periods of pressure and achievement we go through. But you think, that we think that we need your “coaching”? Please.

Fourth. Yes, it may hurt your feelings, but generally we are more educated than you are. Most of you guys have a business degree (if one at all) – and everyone knows that that is the easiest degree you can get. I have one (as well). I know. We are academics, and skilled professionals. We do serious work that impacts millions of people – people like yourselves. Why do you address us like we were unskilled workers? Probably because YOU are and you don’t know better. Let me explain it to you: we do important stuff, OK. You want to play with the big guys? Just acting like a professional and acting like adults may get you half ways.

Fifth. OK, so you lack education. But common sense should tell you that if you want to make a living on other peoples skills – at least be smart enough to treat them with some dignity. Take care of “your merchandise” (boy did it hurt saying that!). It is mostly us visiting your office to get interviewed. But think of it that it is actually you stepping into our industry, humbly asking if you may have a share of the value we create. In fact, last time I asked the agent to send HIS resume to me, so that I could assess if he was skilled enough to represent me. He wasn’t. So, next time you step into “my office” – show some f-kn RESPECT!

Sixth. Do we really think we would get the agencies cut if we went direct? Ehhh…. yeah! What does that tell you about you’re “added value”?

I know you know shit about math – but try to work it out anyway: if so many contractors have so many unflattering things to say about agents. What does THAT tell you?

YOU ARE ALL FIRED!

Mr B

@ Mr B

Nice comments, I agree with alot of your points there, but I don't think any of them are relevant to this article. They're relevant to the other articles that you refer to within the (long) post, but not this one (which you don't refer to).

Oh, I forgot to comment on this one - I think it wins the prize:

"When I speak with a candidate I am very aware that they may be a little nervous and that some subjects may need to be handled with kid-gloves. I genuinely try my best to make sure that candidates feel at least ok with the time that they’ve spent with me".

Hilarious!

which part of the above quote do you find so hilarious, and why. Actually, keep it to yourself.

"yes I'm aware of that, thanks. Wether or not your business has more expenses is neither relevant nor of interest. I'm making a point about the frequent complaint of high recruitment fees and highlighting that there are reasons for it, that's all."

I don't believe you that you have costs which are that high. If you said "we are a business, we are in it for profit" then that would be fine. I'm not an idiot, I know that your there to make money. The fact you feel that these costs are "high" tells me that you should be looking at your costs. If you want a real world example of what I'm talking about look at Ansett vs QANTAS in 2001. For every $1 of revenue Ansett brought in, 10c was profit, compared to QANTAS where for every $1 of revenue 60c was profit. They both did the exact same thing and yet one made so much more money than the other. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansett#Demise)

I'm just saying that if these basic costs that just about every business in the world has is such a major cost component, you should be looking at reducing your costs before someone else moves in with a lower cost base that can under pin you. As we all know what happened to Ansett.

"- this is just a nasty, cowardly little dig isn't it? You know nothing about me or my sales ability yet you're making judgement calls. Stick with what you know eh buddy."

I know a lot about sales. They underpin everything I do in my business. I also know that sales don't happen because I say "hello world, here I am" I have to give a reason for people to use me, furthermore I have to accept that they will be slow to make a decision, they may not even go with me in the end. This is the nature of sales, and I've had my fair share of knock backs. I've had my fair share of stupid questions and dealing with annoying people. Sales is a scary role, that can take a long time for a payoff, cost a lot of money to win, but that is just the nature of business.

"- you seem to have incorrectly used the word "more" as all you've done in the above is make inane comments and herald pure guess work. You have neither pulled apart nor contributed to the discussion at hand." Don't make your argument based on spelling. It's a sign that you've lost. Also you've placed an article up onto a public forum, one that you yourself have acknowledged that is prime for "recruiter bashing" and yet you get surprised when someone questions your article? My comments where based on my own experience in business. What I did (at midnight) was simply go through some of the point which I disagreed with and put my thoughts into it, which is no doubt what you are after by publishing an article on a public forum (unless you wanted us to all hold hand and dance around a smiling sun, in which case your dreaming)

I have pulled your article apart because I believe you haven't thought your arguments through. The arguments I have made a purely based on what I have see here. You may be the best sales person ever, but it has not come across in your article.

The first couple of paragraphs of your last post hardly merit a comment. They essentially provide a short lecture about business costs and the sales process. Thanks for that.

"Don't make your argument based on spelling. It's a sign that you've lost."

Err, I didn't make any comments in regards to spelling, and I'm not trying to win any argument. There is no argument.

"you get surprised when someone questions your article?"

Not quite right. I'm not surprised that people question my article, not at all. I am, however, a little dissapointed that all of the above comments (I believe) are essentially derogatory, don't really tap into what i've written in any way and in no way further the discussion. It strikes me as the above comments have primarily been written to rub the egos of their writers and to take glee into critising someone else. As such, it all gets a little tiresome, so you'll forgive me if I don't take the time to respond to anymore of your inane, patronizing posts that fail to make any relevant comments. Go buy a box of a tissues.

davedrastic, this was your chance to convince me. The fact you've responded in such a way indicates that I must have really hit a nerve.

Who cares that I may not put forward the worlds most articulate answer. It's an anon online forum. I'm not going for a literary prize.

I'm not aiming to be derogatory, nor this a personal attack, I'm simply playing with what you have posted, and yet to me you have failed to do your industry justice. You'll find that IT guys don't care that you make money. What we want is honest answers on how much. For example if you have $1000 worth of costs per job placement, and yet expect to make $10,000 most of us don't care that you've made $9000. But "hand feeding" us as if we're children, that's what really pisses us off.

Also when you say "There is no argument." well technically there is. It's not an argument in the traditional sense, but more of a debate. Your suppose to be putting forwards reason as to why, for example per job ad $1000 - Advertising, $500 - Placement consultant, $3000 - Account manager, $600 - Friday drinks to celebrate big placement. We don't know who you are, so what do you care that we know what amounts you spend on each thing, it could work in your favor.

Bah, who am I kidding, I'm just here to to have some fun with you... As obviously you don't want to put forwards a better argument that "gees I said it, should that be gospel enough for you"

reponse to Anon#1 ...

"this was your chance to convince me. The fact you've responded in such a way indicates that I must have really hit a nerve."

Have you considered the fact that I don't need to convince you of anything. In regards to hitting a nerve, making an opening statement such as "Now to tear apart your arguments for a second" and to continue with a load of ill-thought, irrelevant, mean-spirited criticisms that do not contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way, has been a tad annoying I admit.

Not sure what you mean by your "hand-feeding" comment. But I think that my general point (in the article) is that whether or not candidates are pissed off with recruitment consultants in general, for whatever reason, that they should remember to treat individual recruitment consultants with respect until the point that they've done wrong. To do otherwise is simply to be arrogant and rude. I discuss fees, providing a general outline of the industry standards (which I'm guessing is not news to most), because it strikes me that that IS the primary reason as to why there is hostility towards recruitment agencies/consultants.

Again I'm not quite sure what I'm "supposed" to be doing according to your last paragraph. If you have a direct question, ask it - preferably a little more legible than in your last paragraph,and I'll answer it if I feel it appropriate. Or perhaps someone else can. But I'm pretty sure that I'm not "suppposed" to be do anything in particular. I've posted an article to question the hostility towards recruitment consultants and if all you want to do is continue to dismiss them, then fine, be that way.

"Have you considered the fact that I don't need to convince you of anything."

Then why did you bother writing this article?

Get a room!

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Macca - whilst I appreciate your Shakespearean comment on this topic (and I'm not saying I disagree with you), perhaps keep those types of comments off the boards otherwise this site ends up being like all other troll sites.

Doug L, this is a troll site. Half the fun is to poke fun at the trolls and watch them byte.

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Acerbic as ever Macca - keep working dude b'cause I need to fill my BMW up.

We're have to keep working hard for UnemployedITer. The lead substitute additive which needs to go into pre 1986 cars is very expensive.

Pre '96? Nope, mine is the new M3 and I need Macca's (and your) taxes to help me pay the lease as well - so get of your a$$es !!

Where did you get an M3 where you can afford to pay it off on an fortnightly income of around $600 (That's the standard dole income from memory)

That would be my secret anon :-) But anyway, it's a great car to drag of just about everything else but the fuel bill requires contributions from all you taxpayers.

Macca lacks matures. Without styles and classes of Great Leopard and of the rogue commentates. Leopard pure king technical master class. As professor take Macca to tech's schools easy one mates.

The IT dept was retrenched for valid business reasons. I have no quarrel with my last IT employer.

1) I was an A/P in a perm job where I was paid a median salary plus 4 or 5 figure bonuses at years end.

2) Less than 12 months before being finished up I was given a significant out of season payrise for excellent work leading critical project. Management offered this, I didn't ask for it.

3) After 16 months of applying for a variety of position from grad upwards I realised that these selfcalled professionals in recruitment had destroyed my IT career.

No amount of bleating can convivnce me that they are ANYTHING OTHER THAN TOTAL RSOLES

PS I turned 50 during that last employment.

Since davedrastic is a very big joke, I’m going to rewrite his article.

Now disclaimer, I’m not a recruiter. However I don’t have a problem with most of them. I have also seen the other side of the fence. That said – davedrastic – you are a dickhead.

“Every recruitment company on this planet is in business to make money. This is no different to the fact your in IT to make money. However a good recruitment consultant can be a valuable resource to the IT consultant.

The facts are that a recruitment consultancy firm typically has expenses including rent, phone, wages, office support staff, advertising and sundries, which need to be paid each month. Whilst these expenses are not high some agencies also have shareholders, which insist on a certain percentage of profit per-month, which means that if we as agents don’t reach our targets, our heads are quite literally on the chopping block.

First of all no recruitment agency in Australia actually charges candidates for services performed, we take our fees from the employer. Whilst it may seem like we are charging the candidate, we can assure you that it’s the end client we are charging, and we charge them for the following reason. Employers use recruitment companies so that they don’t have problems associated with taking on an employee directly. There have been various cases where a company has taken on a consultant directly. The tax office has then simply decided the person is actually an employee, and then resulting in both the company and the consultant getting the worst of the consulting worlds and the employment worlds. By using recruitment companies as part of a service providers contract this problem can not happen. This is why a contract often says its between yourself and a recruitment company rather than yourself and the end client.

On to the question of whether fees charged to the client are too high or not, we charge what the market will allow us, the same as you charge what you think the market will allow you. Like with you we will charge as much as we think we can. Like you we are not providing a community service, however we are in a position to form an arrangement with yourself which can be mutually beneficial.

It costs a recruitment consultant/firm both time and money on every unsuccessful campaign that they work on. As such it is in our interest to place you with a company through us, as we don’t get paid if we don’t place a contractor.

In regards to whether or not an individual recruitment consultant deserves your disdain, I ask that you consider building a professional relationship with us. We can be considered the gate keepers, and whilst we know that may be able to find a client which is happy for you to go directly, for most clients they insist you run your contract through us. This means that we will be more likely to want to work with you if you show us some common courtesy.

I bring up this subject as I personally am sick of dealing with applicants that have a chip on their shoulder and think it’s ok to deal with me (as a recruitment consultant) as if I were a piece of shit. I am going to be less willing to help you, and I’d rather help someone else."

Now I invite others to comment, feel free to tear this apart, just don't make it about grammar or spelling mistakes. One last thing - davedrastic – you are a dickhead - this is what I meant about having the balls to stand behind your argument. I hereby invite you mr davedrastic to pull this article apart, and I'll happily respond to your criticisms in kind

Thanks for the invite Anon#1 - gees, we are getting on well aren't we. Actually to be honest, this is getting a little creepy. Still, kudos for you for re-writing someone elses' article, personally i've never heard of that happening before. You know I think I'm a little flattered.

But moving swiftly on to your re-write...Oh, I won't disect this quite as much as you would like me to, but i'll entertain you for a while, it's the least I can do.

"Since davedrastic is a very big joke"

Ooh, nasty. Come on now, play nicely Mr Anon#1. I haven't called you an arrogant, pompous cock have I? No, I've acted like a gent, and I'll thank you to do the same.

"That said – davedrastic – you are a dickhead."

Another personal insult, and we're only on the second paragraph. Tut tut. You're only letting yourself down Anon#1.

"Whilst these expenses are not high"

OK, you're going back to your "my business has much higher costs" argument. Really it's not relevant. Can we just agree that most recruitment agencies that have staff and CBD premises, and that advertise consistently have high costs. If you want to disagree to this, you're just being ignorant. Let's move on.

"if we as agents don’t reach our targets, our heads are quite literally on the chopping block."

Yes, a very true statement. For the recruitment companies I've worked for I've seen many consultants lose their job. In one place, that was established for over 20 years, after 3 months I was the most experienced consultant in the company. It was my first job in recruitment.

"Employers use recruitment companies so that they don’t have problems associated with taking on an employee directly".

This maybe very true. In my article you'll note that stated that I don't work with contractors, but I recruit permanent positions, and as such the above reason doesn't apply (as the client will be the direct employer).

"One last thing - davedrastic – you are a dickhead - this is what I meant about having the balls to stand behind your argument. I hereby invite you mr davedrastic to pull this article apart, and I'll happily respond to your criticisms in kind."

Oh look, personal criticism again. Have I upset you or something? Not sure what you're referring to about having the balls to defend...I don't think you can say that I've avoided any of your comments, however trivial, irrelevant and derogatory they've been, and i'm not that interested in criticising per se. To be honest I don't quite get the point of a re-write. Some of it basically repeats what I said, and other parts talk about IT contractors in particular, which I don't deal with as I previously explained.

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Most of the big agencies run fairly average profit margins of 2% - 12% after tax and costs. In fact, 12% is excellent, 5% is more common.

There are two major costs outside of your standard business expenses which make these profit margins so ordinary:

1) Unsuccessful placements are unpaid - this includes having other agencies present a better candidate, internal referrals, the client filling the job themselves, job withdrawls, your candidate not accepting the offer, your client being too slow to make a decision etc. I imagine an average 20-25% success rate is realistic, i.e. only one out of five days in a week actually earns revenue, and it has to cover the cost of the other four days.

I think if agencies were paid hourly consultancy rates as simply outsourced HR, the fees would be much lower but every client would pay for time spent.

(Imagine if developers were only paid for the hours they produced quality code - ha!)

2) Sales staff are paid a fair chunk of the fees in commission. This really is required otherwise no one would really want the stress of the role. Sales is stressful. Anyone who doesn't think so has not tried. To retain these people and the networks they build for the business, requires a substantial cost, otherwise the effort required would not be worth the reward.

Thankyou Perusal

A decent comment at last

I agree with both points you make, although I think the success ratio is dependant on a number of factors, largely due to the number of clients the agency has at any time, which is generally better for the larger, more established companies.

If clients paid recruitment consultants by the hour, or similar, there wouldn't be half the issues there currently are with the costs. Take a look at Seek/MyCareer and you'll see about a dozen companies literally advertising several hundred, possibly 1,000s' of positions. No way on God's earth do they have that many opportunities - so they're digging themselves a huge advertising budget hole. Presumably their tactics work though otherwise they would stop doing it.

Tech Recruiter soon less aussie recruit works:

NAB Sends more IT jobs offshore

1) It's the nature of sales. You have to be providing a very unique and high end service to be able to charge someone for your sales work (I can think of two businesses which are like that, and one of them are bridal shops in Sydney).

2) Thank you for answering this part. My biggest gripe was that davedrastic said "just trust me on it" when he was trying to defend what technical people think are the untrustworthy. When he was asked to back up his claims he went into a corner.

For the love of Christ

If I had wanted to write an article on business costs, I would have. But as it happens, that isn't my interest.

Now I did invite you, Anon#1, to ask me a direct question, and further to that I did state that "most recruitment agencies that have staff and CBD premises, and that advertise consistently have high costs".

Again, you have no real point that you're making, as such can you just act like an adult and drop the personal insults and ongoing whingeing FFS.

10 seconds of work = loads of amusement.

BTw you invited me, and the other 4 billion internet users to ask you direct questions when you posted by an article on an anon forum.

CurrySIG

Curry at the ACS

hehehehehehehehhe

There is actually no circumstance in which I will return to the so-called IT industry in any wave, shape or form.

Agencies or no agencies; makes absolutely no difference - PERIOD

Hell its free too - very unusual. Must be because of cheap labour!

<chuckles>

How 'bout a new topic!!!!!!??????

I stopped posting here over a year ago. I come back now and its the same old.......

I will check again next year.

Great Leopard also of boredum. PK fallen sleeps or very busy on contracts. Maybe stuns at shock of Hawkwinds returned. Lost soul return then gone again as ghost's of night's. Left industry bests when not to know Apache Tomcat's release from OSX Leopard's. Hhigh tech move fast!

GL

Code Master

IT recruiters are so HIGH END!

Almost like Medecine and Lawyer likes, they set a high bar oaf expectanshun.

As a IT RECRUITER we haves to lobby Governments to allow more fresh meat so as we can keep our 2c companies afloat.

Such high end people, society would be lost without them!

It's been TWO WEEKS and no new topic!

I'm soooo bored.

What to do ... what to do ...

Hmmm... I wonder what this button's for?

"ALL EX-ITERS WHO ARE NOW WANNABE DOCTORS ARE SOOOO LAME"

(I thought that button looked clean).

There. Now amuse me Macca or whoever (don't really care).

BTW I just love recruiters. They are my bestest friend.

Heaven help all of you if no-one bites.

The real evil of recruiters is in locking up the jobs and locking out the talent. They promote the useless, stupid and naive, especially those with the fake qualifications, because they provide a bigger margin. It's another of the bizarre problems with corporate IT - being qualified and experienced is actually a handicap.

Tell you what, lets have a Brainbox social event.

Perhaps Darling Harbour in Sydney.

Well ... I'm based in Melbourne and there's *no chance* of me going all the way to Sydney just for a drink. Besides, based on the *kind* of posts I see here I'm likely to get beaten up by a bunch of bogans... or a crazy medic.

Would anyone be brave enough to share a drink with a Leopard - or afford the champagne and caviar that only the unemployed could buy?

I could go on - but I'm distracted by the Closing Ceremony.

We've missed the one for this site...

I'm with laz, based on the sort of people who this site attracts I wouldn't want to go to a drinks, apart from the fact I don't live in Sydney, I don't even use my name here any more.

I'm mainly here to poke and prod people from time to time, I gave up on this being serious years ago.

Laz need relaxations. Leopard very friendly man unless provocations. But never drunks and be found on darling harbour drinkings den. Bottle leads man to many problems including floppy bedroom trouble. Herbal tea and mango secret to success and brain powers.

More important where PK? Perhaps join Kevin Rudds travels beyjing watch olmypic. Chinese dragon shows is now rise as great world power. World take notice.

Great Leopard

I just love GL post. "floppy bedroom trouble".

Great stuff

I was working with an Indian collegue, who told me they had to leave work to go see there agency.

I was worried!?! When does an agency want to see you, unless you ring them to tell them you are leaving?

Usually all they do is give you a nice coffee mug each year.

Turns out, Indian agencies spend time with the people on their pay role. The meeting was about career dev., working hours being too much...etc

Ha ha ha. Andrew Symond again very cricket troubles. First makes false monkey accusation. Now latest scandels in absents miss trainings for lazy fisherman trip. Sit on buttocks then kicked from team and home for media discraces. Holy macarals mates. Aussie team always seem cricket amusal. Little hopes against India in tours. Leopard prediction lambs to slaugther.

Great Leopard

> 12:00AM master coder

Perhaps new job for Andrew Symond finance director for this companys:

Billions down gugler

Penultimate comments from yoga beast credited for above average ventures yielded less than positive results. Boring shouted hardened sci-fi fans. Incredulous other mammals cram. Murmurings of Charlatanism shouted by the Mancunian crowd. Retirement suggested in desperation by those enthused with lost hope for poetical comment.Political abandon and love lost lorn in hope for once and one final time only. The beast desires our final dance of merriment before it suffers into eternal dementure.

Consultants writing in this blog complaining about candidates: They're our lifeblood and we take the bad with the good. Try and mould and educate the ones with potential, form parnerships with the good ones and ditch the bad... simple!

Candidates complaining about consultants: Our careers are built around working with you (not against) to help you achieve your objectives. Coming in with a bad attitude isn't going to help you sell yourself and then your expectation for us to sell you is not going to be realised.

One of my clients keenly observed "recruitment agents are like the used car salesmen of the corporate world". Sadly this is a stigma we have to deal with and try to overcome...

I love being a consultant and do take the bad with the good. I find my role fulfilling and rewarding. Sure i get the occasional muppet who consider themselves higher beings than us but what they don't know is that I wasn't always in recruitment and have held more senior roles than they will ever achieve - I don't tell them this but that knowledge satisfies me..

I only want to help those who are prepared to work with me. I don't complain and i don't tolerate complainers.. I'd rather invest my time with the good guys as todays candidate should always be considered tomorrows client - We're not just for Christmas I completely agree!!!

Ha Ha - someone agrees with me - woo hoo - in your face Anon#1

Dg belief self is consultants. What laughs. Becomes agent perhaps because fails at technicals. Not like Leopard's king technicals master man always high project success. Technical greaters than agent never understands castors and apache strut. Believe spring bean grow on farm.

Great Leopard

Midnight Code Master

Dg - get over yourself for christ sake.

Being an agent or recruiter has more in comon with a letter opener than consulting.

Oh, good that you are satisfied with your "senior" positions. Since you reveal a complete ignorence in that subject matter experts are many times "beond" generic type seniors tells that these senior positions wasn't very senior at all...

In Australia everyone seems to be calling them selves "consultatns" - even the low skilled bank clerks. Do you have any idea at all what consulting is about?

You still don't get it: Nobody needs an agent to "sell them".

Period!

Mr B correct interpretations. Agent not need but still exist. Only functions hand in pocket take change. Much like Kevins Rudds mates sures to plans large taxations rise attack aussie economy and Harvey Norman profit lines. Labour friends of NSW in turmoils Morris Yemma downfalls high polotic dramas. Rudds next with trouble Aussie citizen one day agrees save economy.

Great Leopard

Midnight Castor Master

@ Mr B and those like him

"You still don't get it: Nobody needs an agent to "sell them"

I can't argue with this statement - it is in actual fact completely correct. However, it ignores the fact that many, IT Contractors or otherwise, do allow agents to "sell them".

Wether or not agents are merely "letter openers" at least we're opening the effing "letters". We're "finding" the opportunities and presenting them to you. Because you're too busy/hopeless/senior to do it yourself. FACT.

So it only takes us a phone call or two, it's more than you've done. So we may get paid a shit load for it - more fool you then.

If you don't like the game, don't play the game - look after yourself buddy, that's all you have to do.

But you won't, will you. Next time, maybe the time after, you'll apply to a job or two through an agency (god forbid). You'll speak with a consultant you despise simply because of the job they do. You'll be placed in your ideal position with a company you're really happy with, whilst cursing the person that presented you with the opportunity. Yet all the while you'll be the better, more skilled, man. Wake up.

All i'm hearing from you so-called IT "Professionals" is whinge whinge, moan moan. Do you not understand the term "contribute". It aint that difficult surely.

If you're smart enough to see through the hessian paper we palm off as our expertise, well then good on you. But remember that taxi drivers are professionals too. Britney is a professional singer, a popular one at that. And some guy called Jules entertains you of an evening. We all do our own thang and some have more academic qualifications than others, yet it effects not our abililty to pull in the dimes.

Get over yourselves will you and if you're going to use a consultant, be polite to them, eh.

Can someone please post an update on Paul's whereabouts?

This site is great and one that I regularly visit for some interesting and sonetimes humorous reading regarding our industry.

But, it has been many weeks since this last entry was posted and there is no indication whether Paul is still managing it?

Is he OK??? Can we expect return of our beloved Oracle??

Dave again comments shows man of self amusals. Dangerous when self belief one is consultant. Wain Swan pretend be treasurer.. Kevins Rudd pretend as prime minister's. But witness mates results to Aussie economicals and supperannuates after labours elections wins:

Aussie Economy Graph's Labour in Power

Consultant very overused term. Garbage man waste management consultant then believe become state premiar. MacDonalds worker claim food services consultant. Even night woman's claim offer consultant service.

Where world coming to when all claim consultants? Leopard of high confusions.

Great Leopard

Ha ha ha. The spotted panther says it in a fun - nay, hilarious way... but most importantly - the kitten makes strong point.

Actually I see more relationships between "night woman" and agents than i see between agents and consultants (there are in fact none)

;-))

But the mistake they make is that they don't realise that although they try to act like pimps - real consultants are not desperate crack whores they can use and abuse!

(why the #$@#% do you dumb fucks think we're in consulting - because were weak minded underdogs looking or an easy way out? Think again!!!!)

We sell and deliver high tech business advantage - something you don’t, capish!

We’re kind of "self pimping" so you can but off cuz we're not sharing the sweet candy with no tech pimp wannabes!

But dave has a point to: taxi drivers and all (other)people out there struggling to make a living earn respect. The reason that I'm targeting Agents/ recruiters is that practically ALL of them I’ve met over here have shown such a crappy and completely misplaced "I’m your sugar daddy" attitude from default. So, statistically, there is a high probability that just about every agent I come a cross is an ASSHOLE.

If you had some brains (and/ or education) you should choose a somewhat more humble approach. Yea, I know – I don’t sound so humble myself - but you are the ones that piss me off!

Think about it: one second I carry a multi million $ tech project on my shoulders and the next some little pretentious shit with some accounting degree (tops)gets patronizing on my ass! Forget it! Na-aaa - Not going to happen!

SAN FRANCISCO (AFP) - US technology giant Hewlett-Packard (HP) said Monday it would cut 24,600 jobs worldwide over the next three years as part of its integration with computer services firm Electronic Data Systems.

The world leading computer maker HP bought the Texas-based business services outsourcing titan EDS in August as part of a 13.9 billion dollar deal that aimed to create a global powerhouse in computer services to compete against IBM.

HP to cut 24,600 jobs worldwide with EDS acquisition

@ Mr B

Your comments really illustrate the point I'm trying to make in the article.

I can perfectly sympathise with your antipathy towards recruitment consultants in general. Your anger is based on personal experience with several consultants, and although your experiences will have been different to mine, I can concur that i've had some bad experiences with recruitment consultants too. I'd be very surprised if the majority of us haven't.

But that does not mean that the next recruitment consultant you deal with will also be an asshole.

Your comments are far too sweeping to be considered legitimate or fair. In fact you're holding a prejudice, which we all know is a very ugly thing to do.

But whatever. Like one of the recruitment consultants said above, it's just a matter of choosing not to deal with those with attitude. It would be nicer if you people were not to act like assholes in the first place, but hey, what can we do. And that's a rhetorical question.

In regards to those questioning the over-use of the term "consultant", whether it be by IT Consultants, or Recruitment Consultants, or Food Service Consultants, my only question is "does it matter?". It is, afterall, only a word. A title that we, or our employers' bestow upon us. Perhaps it rubs the ego of some, perhaps it doesn't for others. But really, does it matter.

You'd find the overuse of the term consultant is part marketing, part tax dodge.

my other pet hate is the overuse of the word "solutions". Garbage collection is now "waste removal solutions", buying a bed is now "sleep solutions". Since when do I need a solution to sleep on? Hell I've spent many a night passed out on the floor of a friends place, I didn't need no solution to do it.

Another one is "contractors", especially the ones that are not incorporated and are payed a salary package.

anyone know any bird whistles?

t-wit t-whoo

brrrr

brrrr

woop woop

CONsultant Dave of high confusions. Perhaps act weird losses much $ in supperannuate in wall street bear market collapse. Storm show beggining of end for US mates. Power shift away from western world. Very greedy loans and credit card addicts now cause mentals.

Great Leopard, it's a shame you're not a US citizen. You could be a GOP presidential candidate given the spin you've put on the collapse of Centro.

Bravo best not laugh before read:

Beef Stroganoff Labour MP

Great amusals almost total unbelieve. World market collapse, US economy ruin. Bank and insurance companys fall for century crisis. What Rudd answer? Spents parliament time complains for porky polatician wife scream demand giant $2 meal. Pig with snout in troff ignore world around on $130K pa.

Sad time Australia under Rudd and labour unionist. Turnbull 2010 to save. Man of money not mandarines speaker need to turn economy wheels.

GL post the best mates.

he is a midnight coder and I am the king of middleware.

US government of amusals and confusion. Texas cowboys Bush ruin bank then attempt rescue and ride smoking gun into sunset. Retires to lefts mess to Obayma.

Too hard for Leopard contemplations. World in disorder. Coding begins 2 mins. Soon in world makes senses.

Great Leopard

Castor Master 11:58PM coder 2 minute to midnight